The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 29, 2019, 07:48 PM   #176
jugornot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2017
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post


I could suggest everyone take another look or I could suggest members think about it but I know I would be wasting my time. The last time I came across something like that was on a bench Resters forum.

F. Guffey
Maybe to leave some slack for the .010" they give you to play with. Seems excessive to me. The Lyman has .095 deck thickness, but there is also a slot in the middle of the deck for easy entry?
jugornot is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 07:49 PM   #177
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
This would be slightly more time consuming on a cam over press
HOW? WHY? I have no fewer than 20 presses, At least 14 of them are cam over presses. All of my cam over presses are 'bump presses' that leaves me as being the only reloader that knows how to adjust a cam over press.

F> Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 07:57 PM   #178
jugornot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2017
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
HOW? WHY? I have no fewer than 20 presses, At least 14 of them are cam over presses. All of my cam over presses are 'bump presses' that leaves me as being the only reloader that knows how to adjust a cam over press.

F> Guffey
Seems to my imagination, since the ram end point of movement does not coincide with the handle end of movement you might have to work the handle while you adjust the die. The other way would be to know the amount the ram dropped after TDC and add that to the shim thickness. One method would require a slight bit of "feel." the other would require a consistent fall of the ram after cam over.
jugornot is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 07:58 PM   #179
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Maybe to leave some slack for the .010" they give you to play with. Seems excessive to me. The Lyman has .095 deck thickness, but there is also a slot in the middle of the deck for easy entry?
A slot in the deck? What if the deck does not have a slot?

The slot has to do with primers. The no slot has to do with primers. It is a way to protect reloaders from them self's. I have shell holders that do not have a slot, no slot prevents the reloader from removing a case from the shell holder if the case is for an auto loader. We do not want cases with high primers.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 08:13 PM   #180
jugornot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2017
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
A slot in the deck? What if the deck does not have a slot?

The slot has to do with primers. The no slot has to do with primers. It is a way to protect reloaders from them self's. I have shell holders that do not have a slot, no slot prevents the reloader from removing a case from the shell holder if the case is for an auto loader. We do not want cases with high primers.

F. Guffey
Got it. Again thanks
jugornot is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 10:27 PM   #181
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
F Guffey
What question did you ask me that I didn't answer . I answer every question anyone asks . If I don't know I will say so , I don't BS my way out of something . So again what would you like to know .
Sorry I took so long , just saw your post.

Chris
cw308 is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 01:29 AM   #182
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,541
I said something although accurate I believe it could be a bit misleading in the context of this thread .

Quote:
When I learned that , I started backing my die out to get that extra .008 of length but by doing so some cases came out .006 longer while other came out .010 longer with out adjusting my die . That was my new variance because of the flex/deflection in the press I was now getting do the shell holder and die no longer touching at the top of the stroke .
That .004 variance was not happening every time I sized a case . When the die was set to bump the shoulder .002 most were in fact bumped that amount . This was years ago now but if memory serves . Out of 100 cases sized around 15 were either long or short of the intended goal . Now that's not a whole lot but did require me to measure every case after sizing which takes time . With the comp shell holders I measure the first couple to be sure they're coming out right and then only once every 15 to 20 just to check consistency . This speeds up my sizing process quite a bit . I generally have large batches I size at a time . Usually 500+ pieces at a time , on a single stage any time saving ideas are welcome and going away from the shimming idea saves a lot of time for me because I don't need to measure each case after sizing .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 04:20 AM   #183
jugornot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2017
Posts: 194
Sorry group. I apologize for mistakingly using CW308's handle in reference to a problem that Metal God described. My excuse is its a long thread and I'm easily confused. But then any who read my posts understand that.

A thought occurred to me of a difference between cam over and non cam over resizing. With a non cam over press the eventual final amount of pressure used is determined by the brass. I'm saying one case may require more pressure to reach the stop than another. In a cam over press the cam over pressure would be more consistent. I have never had a case keep me from camming over. Hopefully that means the camming force is more consistent than the brass's resistance.

My way: annealing every time provides a very consistent resistance to resizing. In my mind consistent resistance and consistent force by over camming makes consistent cases. Consistent ammo is a precursor to long range accuracy. I know there hasn't been a correlation between accuracy and annealing, but when I resize and seat bullets I can feel the consistency. It has lowered my SDs for my ammo. That is objective benefits to annealing. I know it is generally accepted that annealing prolongs brass life. Is there objective proof of this?

Just an old guy with to much time for thinking.
jugornot is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 09:14 AM   #184
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Seems to my imagination, since the ram end point of movement does not coincide with the handle end of movement you might have to work the handle while you adjust the die. The other way would be to know the amount the ram dropped after TDC and add that to the shim thickness. One method would require a slight bit of "feel." the other would require a consistent fall of the ram after cam over.
With all of the experience of this forum I would think the first thought would be about the extended shell holder. The deck height for the extended shell holder is the same as the standard shell holder; that would be .125". After that comes the utility as in using one die for a specific chamber like the 30/06 when using Competition/Gold Medal type dies, To add the 308 W all that is necessary is to add the extended shell holder.

For reloaders that are afraid of loosing their place' and they are sizing 30/06 and 308 W cases it is possible to set their die up for the 30/06 case and then switch to the #3 Extended shell holder when sizing the 308W cases.

there is a difference between the standard #3 shell holder and the #3 extended shell holder. the difference? The reloader without the extended shell holder has to adjust the die to the ram when going back and forth from the extended shell holder and the standard shell holder.

I have always thought threads in the press and on the die were there for making adjustments.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 09:28 AM   #185
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
jugo
Alot a talk on cam over , There my not be a right or wrong . I think it's a matter of feel , what I feel is a dead stop others may add alittle more muscle. I would think adding muscle would stress the press . I never got into heating brass., some of my friends do with good success in sizing and brass life . I don't own a chronograph to check velocity , l guess I'm still old school and see what happens down range .

My reloading is on a single stage press , rifle reloading l reload 30 rounds each week , so l can take the time in trimming every time , lube and size then back in the wet tumbler to remove lube , all my cases are uniformed ( pockets ) flash holes are deburred and make sure flash holes are the same size . I can do this because I have the time only doing 30 , some say it's a waist of time but I have it .

I take the same time in setting up the press . My sizing is smooth with very little resistance and I can size all my cases to .000 to .002 what ever setting I chose . Using a dead stop or cam over or what ever you want to call it , I still say if stress has to be used to get there your doing something wrong , cases aren't clean , not enough lube or maybe even your in to much of a rush , if so , cut down on your quantity and concentrate on quality.

F.Guffy did I cover any unanswered questions.

Chris
cw308 is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 09:44 AM   #186
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
since the ram end point of movement does not coincide with the handle end of movement you might have to work the handle while you adjust the die. The other way would be to know the amount the ram dropped after TDC and add that to the shim thickness. One method would require a slight bit of "feel
Reloaders are infatuated with 'bump', they bump this and they bump that and they spend most of their time doing something I find impossible to do' they claim they can bump the shoulder back. I am up-front with that. I insist it is impossible to bump the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support.

"with end movement' with a cam over press the end movement of the ram is called 'bump' on a cam over press. SO When adjusting the cam over press the ram is moved over top dead canter meaning when the ram passes the bump stage the ram moves away from the die. Yes, the ram bumps twice, once on the way up and once on the way down if the reloader can get a grip on the concept' the ram must move up before it can be lowered.

And now the impossible part to understand. the die must be adjusted to contact the shell holder between the two bumps (rock back and forth), if a reloader was able to measure the amount of cam over they 'should be able to determine the amount of sizing in thousandths.

If the die is adjusted on the top of the bump the die is lowered when the die contacts the shell holder. If the reloader understands the concept of '0' he can measure the amount of cam over with a feeler gage placed between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die.

And no it is not necessary to start over everyday. It is not necessary to measure the amount of cam over everyday, once is enough for a life time.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 10:00 AM   #187
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Alot a talk on cam over , There my not be a right or wrong . I think it's a matter of feel , what I feel is a dead stop others may add alittle more muscle.
There is one answer that you absolutely refuse to consider. I suggest you expand your resource field.

I said the Rock Chucker is not a cam over press. I said I have 3 Rock Chuckers, I said all of my Rock Chuckers lock up and go into a bind when the ram hits the top of its travel.

I said the bind is caused by the linkage' all of my Rock Chucker rams kick forward at the top and back at the bottom and I say I am the only reloaders that knows and understands that because I can not get another reloader to back away from the keyboard, get out of their chair and then crawl under the bench.. You can disagree with those that do not agree, if they start insulting you, you are better off without them. Something like the song about Caldonia.

I have insisted the case is the aligner, without the case in the shell holder for alignment the ram does not align with the shell holder. It is not necessary for a reloader to get out of his chair to watch the ram kick back. And as I have said before the ram is a solid bar, if the top is kicked forward the bottom has no choice but to kick back.


F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 10:48 AM   #188
David R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2015
Location: The swamps of WNY
Posts: 565
I have brought this up before.

Please describe cam over.

I call it linkage going over center so the ram goes up exactly the same distance every stroke.

Lever goes down. Ram goes up. Lever goes past center of the linkage. Ram goes down just a teeny bit. Lever pushes firm, then gets easy that last little bit of the stroke.

Is this a cam over press? If not I have never seen one. I have a rock chucker.

David
David R is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 11:03 AM   #189
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
F.G
When thinking of cam over , I'm not only thinking of my press but any press if it designed or not for cam over , if it bottoms out at the top or kicks back . What I feel and that's just me . I can size my cases to the size I want and can get there without stress , is the way I like the press to work . You can twist it anyway you want and can talk until your blue in the face , that I don't know what I'm talking about or will not answer your questions . I'm giving information and only my opion what works for me . This type of BS doesn't help or answer the post . People have to try and see what works and what doesn't , we suggest what works for us . Not who's right or wrong . Hope I Helped in some way

Chris
PS I like my RockChucker . I don't have to mess with bind or rock back and forth , why would you want a press like that anyway . Just up and down and centered .

Last edited by cw308; January 30, 2019 at 11:15 AM.
cw308 is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 11:12 AM   #190
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Is this a cam over press? If not I have never seen one. I have a rock chucker.
You have a rock Chucker, the Rock Chucker does not cam over. I have Rock Chuckers' none of my Rock Chuckers cam over because I have Piggy Back 11 attachments. The Piggy Back attachments have a feature that is called 'auto advance'. I understand no one gets excited about that but the Piggy Back attachment with auto advance will not operate with a press that cams over. One more time; if a press is a cam over press the ram goes up, stops and then changes direction when the ram gets to the top of the stroke. If the ram changes directions the shell holder plate reverses direction.

I do not know about other reloaders with Piggy Back attachments but my Piggy back attachments have pins for alignment when the ram hits the bottom, the pins lock the shell plate in place' and then there is the one way clutch, my piggy back attachments have one way clutches, if the ram turns in the opposite directions the one way clutch is rendered scrap. There is nothing that grabs hold and locks down like a set of tongs, Ridgid pipe wrenches and a one way clutch.

And then there is RCBS, they have a parts catalog for Piggy Back attachments and presses.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 11:35 AM   #191
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
My way: annealing every time provides a very consistent resistance to resizing. In my mind consistent resistance and consistent force by over camming makes consistent cases. Consistent ammo is a precursor to long range accuracy. I know there hasn't been a correlation between accuracy and annealing, but when I resize and seat bullets I can feel the consistency. It has lowered my SDs for my ammo. That is objective benefits to annealing. I know it is generally accepted that annealing prolongs brass life. Is there objective proof of this?
Many years ago reloaders were carving out niches, they wanted to be the 'go to guy, it was there way or no way. Not me' but before I said anything I decided there had to be rules, I thought annealing had to be a discipline so I started making a list of rules that did not violate the rules.

And then I made a tool for annealing based on 'the rules'. it was cheap, easy to make the only thing I could not do was make it fool proof' because fools do not read. It still works as designed but I have avoided discussing annealing because of the reloaders desperate attempt to be the 'go to guy' it has only gotten worst.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2019, 11:46 AM   #192
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Maybe to leave some slack for the .010" they give you to play with.
they give you and other reloaders slack to play with; .010" worth of slack! If ever there was a case to be made for the unfairness it would be that one.

.010" is .001" more than the difference in length between a minimum length/full length sized case and a 30/06 no-go head space gage or .005" longer than a go-gage. I suggest you guys avoid traveling down rough roads with your presses. I can imagine parts flying off of the presses because of the loose fitting parts.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08329 seconds with 8 queries