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Old December 15, 2018, 06:46 PM   #1
Brutus
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200 vs. 230gr .45 ACP's

A new conundrum, I've been shooting 200gr. plated FP in my .45's for years.
All my .45's are adjustable sight 5" target models so no problem, until I made my latest purchase which is a fixed sight 4-1/4" commander which shoots my 200gr. handloads about 2" low.
Gun is regulated for 230gr. ball ammo which is right on target. This is a self defense gun so I will stick with 230gr. Speer gold dot ammo for it.

Problem is I have about 2,000 200gr. bullets on hand for target practice and I really don't want to start buying 230 grainers for this gun.

What reloading options do I have to raise the poi 2"?
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Old December 15, 2018, 06:54 PM   #2
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Problem is I have about 2,000 200gr. bullets on hand for target practice and I really don't want to start buying 230 grainers for this gun.

What reloading options do I have to raise the poi 2"?
If the expense of proper bullets for your gun is a problem, just get a mould and cast your own. Wait until you see the smile on your face when you realize you can load .45 ACP for less than .22 rimfire.

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Old December 15, 2018, 07:40 PM   #3
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Do what I do (sort of)... shoot 200's in the adjustable sight models, and 230's in the fixed.
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Old December 15, 2018, 08:25 PM   #4
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You could also replace (or file down) the front sight so POA/POI are the same.
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Old December 15, 2018, 09:35 PM   #5
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Does not make sense that the 200 grain would hit 2" lower than the 230 grainers. I would still use the 200 grainers and adjust aim from 6'oclock to 12 o'clock. It appears that the 3/4'' inch loss in sight radius is making you aim low.
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Old December 16, 2018, 08:05 AM   #6
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Does not make sense that the 200 grain would hit 2" lower than the 230 grainers.
Makes perfect sense. A lighter, faster bullet exits the muzzle sooner than a heavier bullet and is influenced less by muzzle rise during recoil.

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Old December 16, 2018, 08:33 AM   #7
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You can run 230g and 200g at the same V,at that rate the smaller bullet would have less muzzle energy, to compensate for the loss you'd drive it faster.
Muzzle rise takes place after the bullet exits and would have no effect on aim,by rights you should see no significant difference.
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:37 AM   #8
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I have no answer, as i shoot 185s out of mine.
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:38 AM   #9
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Thanks for the feedback, odd that after all these years of reloading this is the first time I've run into this. Guess what I was hoping for was a slightly hotter/milder load that would raise the point of impact with the 200 grainers.
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Old December 16, 2018, 10:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by polyphemus View Post
Muzzle rise takes place after the bullet exits and would have no effect on aim,by rights you should see no significant difference.
Umm, are you not aware that the gun moves before the bullet exits? Muzzle rise / gun movement starts as soon as the bullet starts to move. It's explained by Newton's third law.
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Old December 16, 2018, 11:04 AM   #11
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Umm, are you not aware that the gun moves before the bullet exits?
Yes I am,This motion in particular is called recoil and has an opposite direction to the bullet's.That being longitudinal.
Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.
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Old December 16, 2018, 12:29 PM   #12
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I am not an expert, but I don't think slide movement and stopping (slamming into the stop) applies here. As mentioned by the gents above, muzzle movement starts when the bullet starts to move. How would you explain this same POI shift in a revolver? How else can you explain a lower point of impact with a lighter bullet? To me the explanations above are logical and obvious (and I've experienced this same phenomenon with my 200 gr bullets vs 230 gr bullets in my 45 ACPs)...
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Old December 16, 2018, 12:45 PM   #13
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The couple things I’d point out is that the gun will only move perfectly straight back if your hand is directly centered on the center of the bore axis . When the hand is below this axis you create a pivot point allowing the muzzle to rise . Also unless you’re shooting at a very short distance . It does not take to much muzzle movement to create a POI shift . Anyone that’s had a laser on a handgun and tried to hold it perfectly still on a target 30’ away knows . Even when you feel you’re holding it still the laser is moving around an inch or two
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Old December 16, 2018, 01:51 PM   #14
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200g,230g
Dozens of loads and a handful of bullet designs to boot.
I would suggest to OP that he load the same type bullet to the same muzzle energy level and then steady rest test them for discrepancies in aim.
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Old December 16, 2018, 02:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by polyphemus View Post
Yes I am,This motion in particular is called recoil and has an opposite direction to the bullet's.That being longitudinal.
Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.
This is incorrect. Muzzle rise, the gun's rotation in the hand because the bore axis is higher than the hand, starts as soon as the bullet starts to move.

It sure as hell doesn't require the slide to suddenly stop - 'cause revolvers have muzzle rise, too.

This BS continue to come up in forums by people who think they know physics better than Sir Isaac Newton and physicists, and gets thoroughly debunked every time. Search the web and you'll find slow-motion video that shows the gun move and rotate before the bullet leaves the barrel.
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Old December 16, 2018, 02:28 PM   #16
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Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.
Sorry, but this is not correct. The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stock.

Muzzle rise happens because the gun is held below the bore line. Since recoil is straight back, the gun being held below the bore line, this causes it to rotate, sending the muzzle up.

It's not noticeable by humans until after the bullet has left the barrel, and the greatest amount of movement happens after the bullet has left the barrel, but it begins the instant the bullet starts moving.

For the 200gr .45s, try loading them to the same velocity as the 230gr (they should still cycle the action) and that should put the point of impact closer to the point of aim. Slight adjustment of the load may be needed to get it perfect, or might not be, every gun is a bit of an individual.

Or, alternately, just aim higher!
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Old December 16, 2018, 06:45 PM   #17
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. The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stockOf course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise
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Old December 16, 2018, 06:57 PM   #18
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The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stock

Quote:
Of course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise
You've already been given the answer: "Muzzle rise happens because the gun is held below the bore line. Since recoil is straight back, the gun being held below the bore line, this causes it to rotate, sending the muzzle up".

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Old December 16, 2018, 07:11 PM   #19
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Perhaps load the 200 grain a little hotter than normal. experiment with the charge weights and see if accuracy improves any
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Old December 16, 2018, 07:32 PM   #20
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You've already been given the answer:
No,what force is pushing up the slide is not an opinion of what may be pushing up the slide if at at all during recoil.
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Old December 16, 2018, 08:22 PM   #21
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If there is a force moving forward, there is a force moving backward. Without knowing the distance the op is shooting at, semi auto's show much less change in poi than revolvers, which don't usually have an unlocking barrel/recoil spring.

That much change in 200-230 grain acp at 25 yards may be reasonable if comparing target 200 grainer versus a heavy loaded 230 in light weight frame. If a 5 in steel frame, it be hard to tell the differing POI until you go up to a 255 grainer.

Course everyone be different.
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:04 PM   #22
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Interesting video, right around the 10 second mark.
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA
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Old December 16, 2018, 09:57 PM   #23
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The interesting thing I notice is it “appears” there is no movement before the bullet leaves the barrel . However I think the black gun on black background makes it hard to see if it’s moving . Also you can’t see his his finger move on the trigger either and we know that had to move .

I’ll see if I can find another video with a little more contrast .
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Old December 16, 2018, 10:11 PM   #24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm_xuzHHuG0
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Old December 16, 2018, 11:33 PM   #25
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Gun movement, slide movement, muzzle rise are all produced by recoil force and they begin as soon as the bullet starts to move. This is simple physics. As noted, the answer has been given.

polyphemus, this is not a debatable subject. This is all known fact. Either you understand the facts or you don't. You don't. This is a perfect opportunity to get educated on the subject.

If you're going to limit your 'knowledge' to what you experience, or think you experience and understand, you'll fit right in with the flat Earthers. They haven't been shot into space in a rocket so they make up lies about stuff that can be readily explained by everyday events. You don't have to believe the facts, but if you don't, you have a problem.

Want video evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-45lw5jfik

https://www.recoilweb.com/when-does-...ve-127274.html
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