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Old August 22, 2018, 08:09 AM   #101
cw308
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Once you removed the bullet and powder the case didn't chamber , you would have to resize the case . Go back to the beginning , size , measure case length , trim if needed , chamfer inside and out . As others stated I hope your checking with a clean chamber . Setting up your sizing die to bottom out on the shellholder , remember to lube case body and around case neck lightly , I lube the inside of the necks also but that adds another cleaning step , try leaving the expander ball shaft slightly loose not locked down tight , will self center the expander when pulling through the neck , make sure the expander ball is set at the right height , see instructions . After all that I'm sure your cases will chamber.
Then after all that seat the bullet without a crimp and lower until it chambers forget about measuring for now let's see what it takes to chamber , DO THIS WITH OUT POWDER OR PRIMER , ONLY CASE AND BULLET.
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Old August 22, 2018, 07:24 PM   #102
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Maybe a dumb question... but the brass with removed bullet does have the primer. Is there a way to remove it or basically the brass is no good and just start out with other brass that doesn't have the primer?
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Old August 22, 2018, 08:21 PM   #103
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You can resize the brass just remembered to remove the decapping pin , keep the expander ball in position . It's best though with new clean brass , go through all the steps and record the measurements .
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Old August 22, 2018, 08:24 PM   #104
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Either what cw308 said (resize w/o the pin and/or use new brass)...

-- OR --

Just resize a case from a pulled bullet, pushing the primer out just as you would a spent primer ... just more slowly.
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Old August 22, 2018, 08:25 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninosdemente View Post
Maybe a dumb question... but the brass with removed bullet does have the primer. Is there a way to remove it or basically the brass is no good and just start out with other brass that doesn't have the primer?
Not a dumb question. Just use your depriving die to remove the live primer. I do it all the time and have never had any problems. Throw away the primers when your done. Go slow. If that scares you then throw away the brass and go get some new brass. Probably would not hurt to do that and eliminate the brass from the equation. You dont need to resize new brass.
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Old August 23, 2018, 12:28 AM   #106
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I'd be doing both , removing the primers if you don't want to remove the de-priming pin from your FL die to salvage those cases . As well as starting over with new cases . Which ever you use first/next , Id just make up dummy rounds ( no primer or powder ) . This will allow you to more safely check the fit of the cartridges with less hassle if you get something wrong and need to start pulling bullets again .
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Old August 24, 2018, 12:16 AM   #107
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Nonosdemente I see you are still having problems. I can see in the pictures that you are over crimping your rounds. No matter what you do with seating depth you are not going to solve the problem until you set your seating die to stop bulging the rim.

Try this it is simple and takes less than 3 minutes. I will bet a 12 pack of adult beverages that it will fix your problem.

1. With the shell holder in your press and no die it run a sized case to the top of the stroke.

2. Take the seating stem out of your seating die. (Yes all the way out.)

3. Screw in the die until you feel it hit the case mouth.

4. Back it off two full turns.

5. Set the lock ring in place.

6. replace the empty case with a round that is loaded to a length you want.

7. Replace your seating stem, and screw it down until you feel it bottom out on the bullet. Remove the loaded round, and screw the seating stem down about 1/8 or so of a turn.

8. Make one dummy round with what you have set, and see if it chambers.

I know of this problem from having it happen before, and it gave me fits until I at last took the advice of my mentor. I spent 3 hours doing everything else. In the end that 5 minutes solved the problem. I have not used the crimp on a bottle necked round since.
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Old August 24, 2018, 07:24 AM   #108
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So, this topic is up to 107 posts while the actual question was answered at least once by post #30.
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Old August 24, 2018, 01:29 PM   #109
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Ninosdemente,

After you pulled the bullets, did the primed, empty cases still chamber OK without resizing? If so, there is no point in resizing them again.

Several folks have commented they think your brass looks over-crimped, but I can't honestly say that I see any crimp at all; just the glint off the deburred edge of the case mouth. The sides of the neck and case body look straight.

Go back and look at Metal God's post 99. He appears to have replicated your problem, finding it due to copper build-up in the throat of the barrel. That is one thing that hadn't occurred to me, and I have a Savage barrel that copper fouls badly in just 20 rounds. The sharp and forward shoulder on those Hornady bullets is right where the scuff appears, and the commercial ammo you dropped in won't likely have that unless they are loaded with the Hornady bullet.

If you have a bad copper build-up where MG suggested it may be, then you would have to seat the sharp-shouldered bullets you have extra deep to stop chambering interference, though that wouldn't help with the fouling, which really should be removed, as it raises pressure.

If fouling is the problem, then flooding the bore with a color changing copper cleaner and waiting twenty minutes should get you a very dark blue and black patch. I like Bore Tech Eliminator for general cleaning. Their Cu2+ product is even more aggressive on copper, but it doesn't remove carbon fouling especially well, so it should be alternated with their C4 Carbon Remover to get complete cleaning.
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Old August 24, 2018, 02:02 PM   #110
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This is the first time I would have to disagree with you , after pulling the bullets I would think you should resize the necks , I have pulled bullets being distracted and wanting to be sure I charged the round , I could have weighted but felt better pulling the round , I resized the case . If not wouldn't the case neck tension be different . Sorry to guestion my go to guy.

Back to the Op I think something went south when seating , should seat without crimp and seat the bullet until it chambers an see how deep he has to seat. I don't think its copper buildup , the rifle is new . On an old dog it could be 100 things to look at , let's go one step at a time but need some feedback from nino .

Last edited by cw308; August 24, 2018 at 02:09 PM.
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Old August 24, 2018, 02:37 PM   #111
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I guess this thing will never end.

Check the OP's post #97 where he states that an empty case after pulling the bullet would not chamber. That certainly points to shoulder bulge due to over crimping being the culprit. He hadn't resized the case but that should be the next step and then try chambering. If successful, back off the seating die a half turn or more.
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Old August 24, 2018, 02:57 PM   #112
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"
Quote:
Check the OP's post #97 where he states that an empty case after pulling the bullet would not chamber. That certainly points to shoulder bulge due to over crimping being the culprit.
Yes.

i finally blew up the attached pictures. The neck is heavily crimped. There is a bright ring at the shoulder of the case: Bulge.

OP:

You don't need a crimp. Go to post #107 and follow directions for adjusting the seating die.
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Old August 24, 2018, 03:15 PM   #113
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Quote:
Check the OP's post #97 where he states that an empty case after pulling the bullet would not chamber. That certainly points to shoulder bulge due to over crimping being the culprit.
Correct at least in so much as the seating process is where the problem began . How ever if the bulge and or what ever is causing the chambering issues is also causing those scuff marks . That would indicate a severely crooked neck and bullet as well ?????

Do we know for sure this is one problem causing two separate issues ( chambering issues and scuff marks on the bullet ) ? Have "we" even concluded for sure his seating die is adjusted to crimp or even if it crimps at all ? What dies is the OP using and how did he first adjust his seating die ??

The OP REALLY needs to start over from scratch at this point and work one step/station at a time until the problem reoccurs .

Size a new/different case then chamber that empty case ( if that works )

Seat a bullet to the 2.240 COAL in the FL sized empty case and chamber it ( if that works ) well he's done If not I'd first back the seating die out one full turn and repeat steps one and two with a new/separate case ( If that still does not work then I'd look for obstructions in the throat like fouling .
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Old August 24, 2018, 03:23 PM   #114
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Quote:
i finally blew up the attached pictures. The neck is heavily crimped. There is a bright ring at the shoulder of the case: Bulge.
The third pic in the OP does seem to show some shoulder deformation at the body/shoulder junction but at the same time I agree with UN that I see NO actual signs of a crimp applied to the case mouth .

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Old August 24, 2018, 04:02 PM   #115
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Good photo blow up.

That photo definitely shows considerable shoulder bulge (shoulder collapse) and should eliminate any doubts on the failure to chamber.

Come on OP, resize those cases to iron out the bulges and reseat a bullet for a dummy round after backing off the seating die. Then check the chambering. That bulge is so obvious that you should be able to feel it.
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Last edited by condor bravo; August 24, 2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old August 24, 2018, 05:25 PM   #116
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- Fully resize the case
- Seat another bullet to 2.250 with the die backed (several turns) off the shellholder at full stroke.
- Chamber said round.
- Phone home . . . . .

<sigh>
...

Last edited by mehavey; August 24, 2018 at 07:14 PM.
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Old August 24, 2018, 05:50 PM   #117
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Quote:
- Fully resize the case
- Seat another bullet to 2.250 with the die backed (several turns) off the shellholder at full stroke.
- Chamber said round.
- Phone home . . . . .

<sigh>
way too simple and effective, but then you can't get a ten page thread with tangents about the goddess headspace by using common sense
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Old August 24, 2018, 08:26 PM   #118
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Nino: My bad,I did not see post 65 till now.Yes,that is the measurement.
The cartridge case drawing calls for .354 over the shoulder.

Your calipers show .3555 to .358.

So,indeed,the length being crushed by over crimping translated to increased shoulde diameter,and a distorted,collapsed shoulder.IMO,the shoulders collapsed in away that made the bullets eccentric,and that's why they scuffed at the chamber throat.

Solving the problem Is simple once its identified.

You have received a lot of advice on adjusting your seating die.Of course,there is also my way.Mr Guffy is fond of feeler gauges.This is similar.
You have a bolt rifle.There is no need to crimp.You need a way to set your seater die to the same, consistent height off the shell holder every time,so your LOA remains consistent once you get it set.

For now,take a piece of your trimmed,sized brass,no bullet,and put it in the shellholder .With the seater die back out from the shellholder a few full turns,run the ram up to the top. Now,screw the die down till you feel the crimp function contact the case. Stop.

Now,look at the gap between your shelholder and your die body.Thats the "crush".Ok. You want to back off "some" . Enough so that crimp won't contact your cases when they grow a bit.Enough is what you need,but more does not help you. a quarter turn is plenty.

Do you suppose you can come up with ...oh,say a flat washer that you could use as a gauge between your shellholder and your die body that is pretty close?Something steel,and parallel?. Keep it in your die box.Use it every time.

Consistent. Now,a little secret. Get a fat cross section O-ring,like 3/32 or 1/8 in,with a 7/8 ID. Put it under your lock ring.

When you set your die against the washer,ram up,put a little bit of load on the die.Then set your O-ring'd lock ring down on the die.

Why? A 60 deg Vee thread is a spirally Vee-block.Your die will want to self center with a little end load.

The O-ring will hold your adjustment,but it will allow your die to center on the thread vee. Without the O-ring,your lock ring will fight with the die for alignment. Let the thread be the master with the o-ring.

You will tend to get straighter ammo from the seating process.

This will settle in better after your brass is fire formed.

Once you have a washer or other setup gauge,you can set your seater stem for LOA.

Then you are locked in for consistent,quick,repeatable setup.

Last edited by HiBC; August 24, 2018 at 08:32 PM.
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Old August 24, 2018, 09:41 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condor Bravo
Check the OP's post #97 where he states that an empty case after pulling the bullet would not chamber.
Dang! I thought I'd read all the OP's posts at least twice. I don't know how I missed that.

I still don't see the crimp, but the shoulder bulge does show in MG blowup. So now the thinking is the shoulder bulge is off center and scraped the bullet against the edge of the freebore? If the scrape doesn't go all the way around, that's likely. If it does go all the way around we are back to MG's original explanation of the copper build-up. The only other way I can think of to cause it would be a build-up in the end of the neck portion of the chamber that is jamming the bullet and shoulder, both.

CW308,

It all depends on spring-back. When I pull bullets sometimes there's still plenty of hold, so I don't subject the brass to extra working. But I don't shoot those in matches, either.
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Old August 24, 2018, 10:08 PM   #120
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Quote:
I still don't see the crimp,
Look at the rounded edge of the neck in post #16.
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Old August 25, 2018, 06:07 AM   #121
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Old August 25, 2018, 10:26 AM   #122
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Crimping: The bullet does not have a groove for the crimp and then there is that problem with upsetting the case body/shoulder juncture when the reloader does not understand the crimp only requires a hint of effort. Ands as Lyman and Dillon said the purpose of bullet hold can be upset with the crimp meaning crimping bottle neck cases can be a bad habit.

And I am thankful I do not have any hang-ups when it comes to comparing cases, I have a discipline, I can start with 100 cases, after the cases have been fired, sized and loaded I can used the unfired cases for comparison when something goes wrong.

Goes wrong: After I have fired a case 25 times I can determine the amount of weight loss, or increase in case diameter; because I am the one that does not have datum 'hang-ups' I can measure the diameter of the case anywhere along the length of the case; that is handy when using a comparator.

I have extra barrels, take off barrels and I also have new barrels; when it comes to gages I have no reservation about cutting a barrel off when making a chamber gage. All I have to know is the amount of case head protrusion from the chamber. For example: I expect case head protrusion on a Mauser to be .110", I expect the head space clearance on the Mauser to be .005. SO? If I make a chamber gage for the Mauser I will make it with .110" clearance.

I know: Chamber gages are available and we have members that talk about owning the finest, it is not a problem for me but those chamber gages are like the Wilson case gage. I can only guess the users of these gages use their thumb nail to determine case length from the shoulder to the case head.

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Old August 25, 2018, 11:28 AM   #123
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Another way to know for sure if there is a crimp is to take a picture of the pulled bullets . If there’s an excessive crimp there should be an indentation on the bullet from the crimp .
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Old August 25, 2018, 03:00 PM   #124
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I can see it on Mehavey's blow-up, but it just didn't appear to me on the original photos as necessarily more than a heavily applied deburring. Old eyes, I guess. The little start of a wrinkle just below the left red arrow is a telling point.

Mehavey, what are you using to enlarge the photos without losing a lot of resolution?
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Old August 30, 2018, 11:44 PM   #125
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Sorry for the late reply. I did remove the primers and am working with five. Did trimmed to 1.742". When I tried to chamber... All five did.

One thing I noticed, it's marking the brass. The ones that chambered. I check fired brass that was used on the rifle and it did on those as well. I chambered a couple non fired and it did not chamber.

Won't help without the pictures... But I am having difficulties uploading. Will try another way.

I also tried the gauge and it is better vs what it was on the pictures I previously posted.

By the way, the projectile did have a ring mark around it.
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