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Old August 19, 2018, 10:49 AM   #76
F. Guffey
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Quote:
Instruction #4: Modified

4(M). With seating die backed waaaay off, run an empty case/ram fully up into it. Screw die down until it contacts the case mouth. Back off 1-turn and lock it down.
It is only because I believe I have the luxury of disagreeing. And I know if I do not say something no one else will.

Way off + one turn: one turn is .017"+, I know you did not forget the OP could be having a problem seating bullets and the purpose of the seating die is to align the bullet with the neck of the case. I have old dies that were made before reloaders discovered the Internet. The old dies had a sliding bushing that set on the shoulder of the case when the ram was raised, my opinion the old dies did what they were suppose to and that was align the bullet with the neck of the case; there was nothing in the instructions about backing the die 'way-out.

Now there are competition seating dies, I have two with additional bushings with extended shell holders, again when it comes to aligning the bullet with the neck of the case I believe they do an outstanding job. I do not have competition sizing die because I have not found enough fault with the dies I use and that could have something to do with the way I use my dies.

And then one day I made a seater, there was no backing it out because there was nothing to back out but when it came to aligning the bullet with the neck there was nothing in seating that was more precision.

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Old August 19, 2018, 11:28 AM   #77
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I have a silly question.
Did you weigh a bullet to make sure it is what is advertised on the box?

Had that issue with some SST's before. Box said 139gr but were actually 154gr.
Also had happen with 25 cal Ballistic Tips too. Box said 100 gr, bullet weighed 115 gr.
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Old August 19, 2018, 01:33 PM   #78
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{Edited out snark. Let's not be trolling for flame wars with other members. In the end, you just wind up accumulating infractions.}

I recommend start over with an empty case. Pull the bullet with pliers if you need to (discard the bullet), size the case, measure it, report back here. This will rule out sizing as the issue, or not. Then walkthrough setting up your seating die. Then seating depth. Step by step, here.
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Old August 19, 2018, 01:44 PM   #79
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Quote:
Guffy also posts things like "And then there was. . . melt down the cannons . . . then powder the gators behind . . And blew the gators mind."
That was a quote that started out; "In 1814 we took a little trip along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Missip". The song claims they melted their cannons down so they started loading up alligators, now that had to be tough on the alligators because the song writer claimed the gators nearly lost their minds.

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Old August 19, 2018, 01:45 PM   #80
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An inertial bullet puller is inexpensive and would do that job without marring the bullet. But either way, coloring and marking the thing by chambering it will tell the tale.
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Old August 20, 2018, 11:50 PM   #81
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I do have a Frankford Bullet Puller.... need some practice as I am having difficulty getting them pulled. Am using a wooden piece as my loading table is plywood (at least the top).

I did weight 5 of them and they are coming out to 60gr.
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Old August 21, 2018, 12:55 AM   #82
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Mr Guffy:

Quote:
Way off + one turn: one turn is .017"+
Hmmm.My dies have 14 tpi.

1/14 =.0714 when I went to school.

That would back him off the crimp.

But,yeah,brass in shellholder,ram up,screwdown seater die till crimper contacts neck is good.

This post started with "My brass aftersizing will chamber,my ammo after seating will not"

There are a lot of advanced reloading techniques to learn,A bushingauge is a good tool,etc.

But thesized brass chambered easily. Theanswer to he OP question is not about sizing.

I doubt itsabout charging.

That leaves seating.

What is the frst seating question to check?
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Old August 21, 2018, 07:04 AM   #83
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nino
Did you try seating without a crimp yet as others advised ?
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Old August 21, 2018, 11:51 AM   #84
F. Guffey
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Quote:
Hmmm.My dies have 14 tpi.

1/14 =.0714 when I went to school.
You are correct, if I have trimmed my cases and lowered the seating die down to contact the mouth of the case backing the die off 1/4 turn would be .017".

Back to seating the bullet before adjusting the die to crimp or 'to crimp or not to crimp'; I am the fan of aligning the bullet with the neck of the case. I have never been able to make myself into one that believes it just does not matter.

If the OP chooses he can back the seating die off 2 turns.

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Old August 21, 2018, 12:16 PM   #85
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Nino: the harder the pounding surface is the better off you will be. I use either an anvil or a concrete patio.
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Old August 21, 2018, 01:32 PM   #86
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That's for sure , hammer works much easier off a hard surface , two or three packs the most and it's out .
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Old August 21, 2018, 02:45 PM   #87
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Quote:
If the OP chooses he can back the seating die off 2 turns.
I know, it sounds cool to back the die 'way-off' but if the seating die has anything to aligning the case there is a chance a reloader when showing off when backing the die 'way-off' the belt of the magnum case will be above the bottom of the seating die and that can not be cool.

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Old August 21, 2018, 05:46 PM   #88
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I'm sure the OP is asking about a 223 , backing out the sizing die I remember doing partial neck sizing that way , wasn't a fan of partial neck sizing , I like sticking to the basics.

Chris
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Old August 21, 2018, 06:28 PM   #89
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Troops, this is not rocket science and there are only two questions.

1. When doing the cleaning rod test holding the bullet in the chamber w/ a pencil . . .
QUESTION: what is the difference between the seated bullet tip and the face of the bolt ?

2. After backing the seating die off the case mouth one full turn/then seating the bullet to 2.250" . . .
QUESTION: Will the cartridge then allow the bolt to easily close ?


.

Last edited by mehavey; August 21, 2018 at 06:51 PM.
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Old August 21, 2018, 06:41 PM   #90
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I think his rifle has very little leade , may have to seat his bullets deeper on this Savage.
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Old August 21, 2018, 06:52 PM   #91
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Before the OP does anything, answer Question #1.
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Old August 21, 2018, 07:24 PM   #92
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The answer to question 1 is the maximum cartridge length or OAL for that particular bullet and chamber.

For question 2, if the OAL is less than or equal to 2.250 and any bulge has been eliminated from the shoulder due to over crimping, the round should chamber with perhaps just a little resistance. We're looking at possibly two conditions that could contribute to the problem, and over crimping seems to be the most likely.
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Old August 21, 2018, 07:29 PM   #93
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The Answer to Question-1 has not been measured. Until we know that, we have no idea of chamber/leade restrictions -- if any.

The Answer to Question-2 has not been addressed. The OP has not reported any attempt to seat without crimp. Until we know that, we have no idea if shoulder deformation is the cause.
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Old August 21, 2018, 07:42 PM   #94
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Right on; like a lot of threads we're waiting for the OP to come up with more answers.

From the OP's photos in post 51 it appears that the cartridges are not fitting flush on the lower step in the gauge, but protruding a little. I think there has been only one comment on that.
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Old August 21, 2018, 09:43 PM   #95
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From the OP's photos in post 51 it appears that the cartridges are not fitting flush on the lower step in the gauge, but protruding a little. I think there has been only one comment on that.

I'm thinking cfushing the shoulder and increasing the OD at the shoulder will interfere with the cartridge resting properly in the bushing die.

Once again folks,the OP said he tried his sized brass in the chamber and the bolt closes easily.
The sizing operation is successful.Put the sizing die away and forget about it.

Now,from sized brass that fits the rifle,the brass getspowder and then runs through the seater die.

So what changed during seating tho make the cartridge not chamber?

As Mehaveysuggested,it could be long seated,but the OP already tried seating deeper.Its asecant ogive bullet.
AndIMO,if it was a "hitting the lands" issuewe'd see uniform landshaped impressions.

It is possible,but I doubt it.

High primers? Possible.

But if its theseating op that makes thedifference,no part of theseater dieshould alter the cartridge in any way but the crimp.

If you think t happens another way,please explain the mechanics and the sequence

A whole lot of snipe hunting going on
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Old August 21, 2018, 09:57 PM   #96
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I think the OP has fallen asleep while reading Richard Lee's book. Some good info here but very confusing and hard to sort through now. Maybe we should just kick back and let this play out.
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Old August 21, 2018, 10:58 PM   #97
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Sorry for the late reply. As some would put it... life is happening... but trying to keep up with the posts as well.

LineStretcher, as you put it.. a lot of information for me. Trying to take all of it in... well re reading all of it many times over.

So I was able to remove at 30 of them that use the same powder... and for the hell of it I tried chambering the empty brass. It is not chambering. From my obvious lack of knowledge, it not chambering would it be expected although projectile is removed or the sizing of the brass what started it to begin with? Had to give it that extra push as I did when I tried chambering a complete cartridge. I know for sure the brass chambered correctly and am not imagining it did.

I have not resized the brass yet.
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Old August 21, 2018, 11:49 PM   #98
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OMG , you guys are going to make me read this whole thread just to see how a thread about chambering a case can last 4 pages !!!

Well fine , so be it
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Old August 22, 2018, 12:14 AM   #99
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I'm only half way through the thread but





These are scuff marks I was getting at seating depths at or below Hornady's and Sierra's recommended COAL . Anyone want to take a guess what was causing these marks ???

A severely fouled leade/throat . At the time I was doing this copper equilibrium test thing that never worked out but I had over 400rds through the bore with no cleaning . Oh and this was a Savage model 10 in 308 . I also was experiencing trouble chambering the rounds after awhile as well as pressure signs . When the rifle was new and a 175gr smk was seated to 2.800 . I only had a .020 bullet jump so yes I agree with others that say Savages can have a short leade/throat . Almost always WAY shorter then a Rem 700 . Couple that with a tight fouled throat and boda-bing boda-boom you get those marks on your bullets

I have it in my notes somewhere but If I recall right . I spent a few hours cleaning that bore with a total of at least 100 patches of shooters choice copper cleaner and Hopie's #9 to clean all that fouling out . I believe I gained .030 of available leade/throat to use and never had those marks again , Even when seating to the lands .


Thought I'd add that real quick and I'll now go back to reading the thread .


It seems obvious that the issue resides in the seating process or the OP chambered the only few empty cases that would fit and the rest were not sized down enough . No way the cases fit before seating and not after and it not be a seating issue . Now that could still be many different things but it does not appear at least to me that it's a case sizing problem .


As far as my photos above . That none defined scuff I determined was my bolt holding the case and turning the whole cartridge resulting in the bullet rubbing on what ever made the marks rather then a straight press fit type of thing . I believe it happens as the bolt cams closed and then open and is why the marks were not distinct and or sharp and looked smudged ????
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Old August 22, 2018, 06:14 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
... it not chambering would it be expected although projectile is removed or the sizing of the brass what started it to begin with?
If you'd previously deformed the shoulder while simultaneously seating/crimping, that deformation is still there after you pulled the bullet.

Full-length resize the case, then seat a bullet to 2.50" with NO crimp.
(See Post #75)

Try that and let us know....
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