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Old February 26, 2018, 01:46 PM   #76
HiBC
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I think Steve got the bolt face/locking lug idea right. The bolt locking lugs will (hopefully) both rest on receiver steel under chamber pressure.If one lug bears heavy,yes,bolt head float may gaing you locking lug contact,at the expense of bolt face squareness. It just might be Steve got it right dressing off the high lug.

As far as the ram floating on a Rock Chucker,I think RCBS sends them out the door with a pretty good fit. I had a boss that would say "Indicators don't lie,and liars don't indicate"

I believe Hounddawg got .0027 . Presses loosen up with wear.IMO,its not a big deal to have some ram float. One of the best presses for loading straight ammo is the Bonanza Co-Ax. It does not have 7/8 14 threads. The die lock ring floats in a slot.

IMO,the Rock Chucker and many other presses were intended to toggle over past top dead center A LITTLE BIT. Maybe just enough to keep the handle fromdropping via gravity and pinching fingers.
I set up a lot of $40,000 plus German made Arburge molding presses.They are a lot like a loading press. The press is closed and locked via toggles. I received formal training on setting them up.Toggling over top dead center a bit is what holds the press closed. Actually,toggle over activates a microswitch that shuts of the hydraulic pressure to the clamping cylinder. You can power down the machine and it will hold 40 tons of clamp.A pair of tie bars ,hardened steel approx 2 1/2 in dia,were supposed to stretch a bit .We actually would sometimes use an indicator to measure the stretch per Arburg specs to get max clamp.

The most accurate,consistent way to control the top of the ram stroke is passing top dead center.

But,Unclenick is right. Mechanical advantage goe sway up.Its a touchy/feely thing .Be gentle!

More serious than diameter wear/clearance on the ram,over stressing the press will wear/gall the toggles and pins. The Rockchucker has dual toggle bars.Thats a lot like having dual locking lugs,if one is bearing heavy.That causes a number of problems.
Lube your toggles. I suggest something that has "EP" in the description.Love the smell of 90 wt!. Each toggle on that Arburg had a grease zerk.I had to rebuild the toggles on one of those machines. I used the grease gn regularly.

Last edited by HiBC; February 26, 2018 at 01:53 PM.
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Old February 26, 2018, 03:10 PM   #77
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If someone is really motivated to do so the proper way to check the ram fit is to remove and mike it and mike the hole. I just attached a dial indicator to th epress with a magnetic base and "wiggled"the ram. I am guessing though that it is a RC1 or RC2 fit

ANSI Standard Fits
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Old February 26, 2018, 03:37 PM   #78
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The original instructions for my press, when followed as written, does not create a terrible amount of stress on the linkage. If a person turns the die down 1/4 turn past contact the stress is outstanding. It will no doubt wear the linkage out too fast.
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Old February 26, 2018, 07:36 PM   #79
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In looking at Rock Chucker presses I see they have changed considerably over time. If mine was mounted on a thinner bench the handle would drop to near vertical before the linkage stopped it. I have enough wood chiseled out behind the linkage end of the handle to let it cam over just a little. The wood it is mounted to is the stop.

The RV is a Winibego with a 362. It goes up hills great with no pinging and there is enough compression with this cam to keep the engine from overspeeding in 3rd gear. I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Old February 27, 2018, 10:18 AM   #80
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The original instructions for my press, when followed as written, does not create a terrible amount of stress on the linkage. If a person turns the die down 1/4 turn past contact the stress is outstanding. It will no doubt wear the linkage out too fast.
Bumpers/reloaders believe adjusting the die 1/4 additional turn lowers the die .017"+; the problem comes with the limited ability of the rleoader to keep up with a lot of information. If the ram cam-es over the cam over has to be added to the .017".

I said the last A2 I used had .017" cam over; if the reloader lowers the die .017" after the ram is raised the top of the press will have a total of .35" travel if it was possible to spread the bottom of the press from the top of the press.

When necessary I am the fan of increasing the presses' ability to overcome the cases' ability to resistance sizing; It is possible other reloaders do not understand the concept.

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Old February 27, 2018, 10:36 AM   #81
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If mine was mounted on a thinner bench the handle would drop to near vertical before the linkage stopped it. I have enough wood chiseled out behind the linkage end of the handle to let it cam over just a little. The wood it is mounted to is the stop.
There are times I say life can not be fair because the Rock Chuckers I have been dealt have limiters that control travel . You could remove your press from the top of your bench without effecting handle travel. The toggle contacts the linkage and stops travel of the ram.

I am guessing I am the only reloaders that has figured it out. The linkage banging together pushes the ram back at the bottom and forward at the top.

I was using one of my Rock Chudkers when suddenly and without warning the handle travel changed. I said to my 'self!' "SELF!"; "That is not possible!" and then the ram hit the floor,. I called RCBS, they said they would send me a new one and I asked :A NEW WHAT? The said a new ram and I thought that was very nice.

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Old February 27, 2018, 11:02 AM   #82
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F.G.
RCBS is a great company . I had a few minor problems an when talking to them , the customer service representative said their products have a lifetime warranty an the shipped me a new part NC. I thought nothing lasts forever , guess I was wrong.

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Old February 27, 2018, 08:39 PM   #83
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There are times I say life can not be fair because the Rock Chuckers I have been dealt have limiters that control travel . You could remove your press from the top of your bench without effecting handle travel. The toggle contacts the linkage and stops travel of the ram.
F. Guffey, in light of your comment I took mine off to prove to you that I know what I am talking about. I immediately put it back on when i discovered that I had overlooked the place where it stops travel. It actually only had another 4 c-hairs to go after I took it off. That was actually the best part of my day. So once again I discovered something that has taken you out of your solitude of knowledge! :P Thanks for forcing me to look more closely.
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Old February 27, 2018, 10:59 PM   #84
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I think C H is old school , even before rulers.
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Old February 28, 2018, 10:08 AM   #85
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I'm wondering just how much this stuff really matter's? Does the press still put out good ammo? My Rock Chucker is about 40 yrs old and works fine. Seem's like a lot of reloader's worry themselves into a corner about something that doesn't matter in the first place.
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Old February 28, 2018, 10:11 AM   #86
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I think C H is old school , even before rulers.
I am going to give both of the benefit of doubt by assuming you are talking about C&H of El Monte, California, that would be before C&H4D of Ohio.

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Old February 28, 2018, 11:31 AM   #87
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My Rock Chucker is about 40 yrs old and works fine. Seems like a lot of reloader's worry themselves into a corner about something that doesn't matter in the first place.
I do not know about the order of things like first, second or third place, but; I got a call from a smith/reloader, he was complaining about a press that had locked up. My first answer was, "I do not know" and then that was followed by 'but' "I will be over there this afternoon". To lower the ram I had to back the die out of the press.

He had adjusted his cam over press as thought it a non cam over press. There is nothing I can do about his persistence; he did not waste my time because he had a 50 BMG case stuck in his 50 Cal BMG RCBS press. He is the one that will only use Imperial and or Dillon so there was no need in me bringing my no-name lube. Again, I have trouble making that stuff (Imperial and Dillon) look good when the going gets tuff.

After we separated the die from the case I suggested he change his methods and or techniques for cleaning and tumbling. I set up one of his lathes for cleaning the 50 BMG cases, cleaning the cases made all the difference; cleaning the cases made the Imperial lube look good.

Most of the problem that got him in trouble with the 50 BMG cases was the change out of the barrel, the take off barrel had a chamber that was large in diameter, and the replacement barrel had a smaller diameter chamber.

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Old February 28, 2018, 12:29 PM   #88
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What can I say . You amaze me every time.

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Old February 28, 2018, 01:37 PM   #89
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"I finally got it!"

Yep, a tool you don't even need. There is a lot of yap in this thread about things that you don't even need to consider. Good grief, just lube those brass, size them, the sizer should also have a de-prime punch so the old primer is knocked out. Now wipe of the sizing lube, prime, drop in some powder and seat a bullet. Lets go shooting!

The question come up: "How much powder?" You just have to look at the manual, pick a powder and remember, start low and work up. You will find a sweet spot that your gun likes with that bullet. Have fun!
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Old February 28, 2018, 04:29 PM   #90
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There are only two kinds of rifle handloaders: those who have stuck a case and those who will. Once it happens, you get more serious about your lube and your methods. I've done it twice over the last 40 years of this hobby, and both times used a stuck case extractor that simply tore the heads off the cases, leaving the headless bodies behind and jagged brass protruding from the die mouth. I learned the hard way to stop when I feel any extra resistance from a case I'm resizing, regardless of the cause.

Back on the original topic of the RCBS Precision Mic, I did a CAD drawing of several 30 caliber bullet profiles in both tangent and secant ogive designs. The idea was to get some sense of how far off you might be using RCBS's single tangent ogive dummy bullet as a gauge. It turned out that between 5 and 7 caliber radius tangent ogives (I don't know what the RCBS is, off-hand; it requires some setup to measure it) it is enough that you'd probably want to know what the error was to tweak seating. The secant ogive bullets really get furthest off because they land near the bullet's shoulder with the ogive.



The only way I know to make that gauge work is to insert it and then push it out from the muzzle with a cleaning rod. Any attempt to pull it from the chamber seems to lead to reading errors, as that pulls it back out of its "case" some.
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Old February 28, 2018, 05:22 PM   #91
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Unclenick you are right. Used a 30-30 neck to use the device with a particular bullet. It works but you must push it out with a rod and it's faster to just use a spent case and a bullet and a marker to find the lands.
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Old February 28, 2018, 05:23 PM   #92
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Jamaica, I might not need the tool but I certainly have use for it.
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Old February 28, 2018, 06:05 PM   #93
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Nice drawing Nick and thanks for posting it.

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Old February 28, 2018, 06:49 PM   #94
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Ron,

Thanks.


Steve,

Tools are personal to some extent. I rarely see a thread on them or on a refined loading technique that doesn't have someone jump in and tell you nobody needs all that stuff or that it's a waste of time. What they don't understand is that guns are often finicky individuals, so they can't really know that about what anyone else has.

An example was in the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide. One of the authors had a 300 Win Mag that wouldn't shoot much better than 2 moa, IIRC. He tried everything he could think of without success. Then one day, on a whim, he tried outside neck turning his brass. Bingo. It started printing sub-moa (three quarters or so, IIRC). He had never seen it make that much difference in any other gun.

I had an experience with finickiness at the other end of the case. I had an M1A that shot 0.75 moa with several stick powders. One year I tried 2520 in it and could not get anything better than 1.2 moa in 10 shots. Halfway through the season, I got a new flash hole deburring tool, and for the sake of trying it out, when through my .308 M1A brass with it. Bingo again. Suddenly I had 2520 shooting 0.75 moa. Deburring had never made any difference with the stick powders in that rifle. It also might be, since the charge didn't fill the case well, I would have got similar results switching to a magnum primer, but that was long enough ago that it didn't occur to me.

Anyway, you get the general idea. Every time someone says "you don't need…", unless they offer an alternative or a workaround that gets to the same end, ignore them. Either what you are looking for is outside their experience or they just dislike fussing with things or they feel threatened by complexity or they think other people shouldn't find things interesting that they don't. It's all a matter of trying to overlay their world view on yours. Ignore it.
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Old February 28, 2018, 09:50 PM   #95
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People who enjoy simple methods and easy ways say those things. I generally complicate things for the sake of understanding them better. I ask why for everything. Try figuring out how to make molasses into safe and effective rocket propellant. There is nobody else that I am aware of who has done it. If you know what to measure you can learn from that and make things happen the way you want reliably. I wish I had more money. I would always tinker.
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Old February 28, 2018, 10:40 PM   #96
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Anyway, you get the general idea. Every time someone says "you don't need…", unless they offer an alternative or a workaround that gets to the same end, ignore them. Either what you are looking for is outside their experience or they just dislike fussing with things or they feel threatened by complexity or they think other people shouldn't find things interesting that they don't. It's all a matter of trying to overlay their world view on yours. Ignore it.
an excellent point

I have tried a lot of new things at the bench this last year, some worked for me and some did not. My goal a year ago was to get my SD's into the single digits, it took a lot of changes but I succeeded

Thomas Edison has a couple of quotes regarding this

“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”

and

“Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.”
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Old March 1, 2018, 05:15 AM   #97
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I think C H is old school , even before rulers.
The one I bought new is bolted to my bench and works fine.

I could be wrong,but something in the back of my heads says the "C" in C+H MAY have something to do with Bo Clerke. But I couldn't swear to it.
I also have a monster,massive old Lyman "C" frame press ,grey,with the removable bushing like the RockChucker to allow for bullet swaging dies.
Its under the bench . I'm hoarding it.

Jamaica: (I do like the Blue Mountain Coffee)
Quote:
Yep, a tool you don't even need.
Well,see...There is a progression of learning.
1)Unconscious incompetence.Thats where you keep doing it like you started doing it. You do screw up but you don't know enogh to realize it.Ignorance is bliss
2)Conscious incompetence: That is where ego is less in the way. You don't deny problems. You resolve to correct them. It can be uncomfortable.Thats why many avoid it.But some are inquisitive,creative,driven. They will ask and learn,try,fail,try again,observe,...until they achieve..
3) Conscious competence. At this stage,with focus and discipline,new skills and knowledge are applied. Results improve. Motivation!

4 )Unconscious Competence...Doing it right has become natural.The curious mind may find a new challenge.

Among the Hobbits in Shire,folks were...well,maybe xenophobic.They looked on Bilbo's adventures with suspicion.

Jamaica,I will suggest in a short time Steve has made remarkable progress.

He is ,in several areas,stepping from level two to level three,and gaining confidence along the way.

Jamaica,I think if you will follow Steve,he can teach you a lot.Pay attention,he will have you wearing diamonds and passing flatulence through silk.

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Old March 1, 2018, 08:47 AM   #98
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Beware of the rabbit holes you might follow me down. Lol. Where can I find some silk underwear?
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Old March 1, 2018, 10:07 AM   #99
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Steve as long as you are having fun chasing those rabbits that is all that counts and every now and then you might catch one and that's a thrill. Next thing you know you will be building yourself a 6BR one holer
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Old March 1, 2018, 10:47 AM   #100
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Hounddawg that is more or less my goal. I need to make a barrel vice. I know a welder who can help me with it. He has a lathe so we can turn the bushings for it
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