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Old February 3, 2018, 11:12 PM   #76
rickt300
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Your not technically past that if your trying all these odd tricks to make your reloads fit your chamber when a simple setting of the headspace would fix all of your problems. No need to ream the chamber at all. If that is what your gunsmith wants to do I would find another gunsmith. I did read most of the out in left field ideas but couldn't take it anymore! And you could remove the sights.

Last edited by rickt300; February 3, 2018 at 11:21 PM.
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Old February 3, 2018, 11:31 PM   #77
Yosemite Steve
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At this point I was just explaining what caused the high pressure. The last fly was beat off the dead horse a while back. I won't turn the barrel as it has sights and it would look awful. It will be removed to clean up the face of the receiver and reamed to fit spec.

I'm out of money so I will put it away until I can afford to see another gunsmith. He will pay me back or I never have a good name in this town again. Hopefully I can get my money back and not have to go there. I summarized the scenario in the Smithy. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593207

This whole thing has me pretty depressed. I just want to be done with it.
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Old February 4, 2018, 07:16 AM   #78
F. Guffey
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This whole thing has me pretty depressed. I just want to be done with it.
Yosemite smith, forgive me for any part I had in causing you to be depressed. When I need help I am not selective, I have no ideal why this stuff come easy for me. If a bolt will not close I want to know 'by how much?'

http://www.switchbarrel.com/BOLTHEAD.htm

It would seem to me we have a few members talking about something they have never seen before, and that reminds me of John Godfrey Sax talking about the six men and the elephant. The lugs come with the bolt head. Meaning someone should determine the effect each bolt head has on the length of the chamber.

And then? someone has to determine if the chamber is long and or short. if it is short the barrel index will not be changed if the chamber is reamed.

One more time: I have a rifle that has a chamber that is .011" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. I form 280 Remington cases for that 30/06 chamber.

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Old February 4, 2018, 07:30 AM   #79
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Yes. 2.280
Typing error? Are we measuring from the end of the neck to the case head to get case length? It is just not fair, my 30/06 case length measures 2.494, if your cases are trimmed to 2.280 as 243winxbas suggest you are missing most of the case neck.

But if I have confused you and you are trying to measure the length of the case from the datum on the shoulder to the case head I would suggest you go to SAAMI drawings of chambers and cases.

Problem: SAANI does not list case head space because the case does not have head space, they also suggest reloaders are very confused about it, most of the confusion is caused by reloaders that like to add stuff. Try to speak where SAAMI speaks and be silent where SAAMI is silent.

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Old February 4, 2018, 07:56 AM   #80
F. Guffey
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BTW datums and headspace is not rocket surgery. here is a good primer

RELOADERS CORNER: SETTING CARTRIDGE CASE HEADSPACE
Quote:
here is a good
I would suggest you start with SAAMI drawings of cartridges and chambers, they do not list head space for cases. We had a member that was so infatuated with head space he called SAAMI, I am sure they were impressed but they had trouble taking him seriously when he suggested they made a mistake. They informed him the case does not have head space, I accept that, the case does not have head space.

Head space is not rocket surgery: I agree but we have many members that throw that term around like they understand it. You have never noticed but I use the term 'the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face'. And then there are all of the problems reloaders have when determining the length of the chamber when the bolt will not close: I want to know 'by how much', those that can not figure it out do not need to be thinking about getting into surgery.

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Old February 4, 2018, 08:15 AM   #81
Yosemite Steve
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2.480 sorry. I trimmed an extra .004 beyond normal trim length and it was not enough. The case stretched .010 when fired and the neck hit the throat before the bullet could escape. The gun won't be fired again until it is brought to spec. It isn't worth it to force the gun to be something it wasn't designed to be.
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Old February 4, 2018, 08:55 AM   #82
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The case stretched .010 when fired and the neck hit the throat before the bullet could escape.
The members that get dizzy ever time they read my post are going to pass out.

I form cases for one of my wildcats, by the time I form and fire the cases they shorten .045" from the end of the neck to the case head, and then there is that part about being unfair, your cases are getting longer. You will not believe how difficult that is, you will be hard pressed to find a reloader that can explain that one.

Many times I have said reloaders do not understand what happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. If I had a case neck jam into the throat of the chamber I would suspect the extractor did not jump the rim of the case pm a push feed system, as a side note, if the extractor did not jump the rim of the case all of the clearance would be between the case head and bolt face. What does that mean? The primer is not supported, when fired it will push itself out of primer pocket and then the bad part, the case locks to the chamber and stretches between the case head and case body.

Reloaders have an eversion to the datum, your cases have been trimmed .014", all of that came off of the neck, it is impossible to stick a neck into the throat after it has been trimmed .014" even if you cut the case in half.

Because?

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Old February 4, 2018, 09:00 AM   #83
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Old February 4, 2018, 09:09 AM   #84
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Guffey, you are right. the shoulder would stop it. So now I am back to suspecting the powder. My poor assumption was that the shortened case (which is at the shoulder!) meant that the neck would also nee to be shorter. Glad you said that. I feel like a fool now more than ever. (head hanging in shame and gnashing teeth until gums bleed)

The fact that the case stretched .010 is really something. Normally they stretch about .002. I'm going to take that powder back to 50 grains and seat .020 off rifling with the same bullet but through a standard sized case through the Enfield. I will work the charge back up to 53 and see if I get any of the same symptoms. If I do I would suspect the powder is out of spec.

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Old February 4, 2018, 09:13 AM   #85
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first rule of troubleshooting anything

when something works and you make a change in to it and it no longer works the most likely culprit for the failure is the change that you made

have you ever thought of reinstalling the bolt head you changed
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Old February 4, 2018, 09:26 AM   #86
Yosemite Steve
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have you ever thought of reinstalling the bolt head you changed
Yes. I thought about it a lot. Why experiment with something that needs to be fixed? I think I should leave it alone until I can get a good gunsmith to make it right. Anything I do at this point would be a waste of time and supplies on something that is wrong.

You are right about the troubleshooting rule though for sure. And now my curiosity will take me places I don't want to go.
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Old February 4, 2018, 09:49 AM   #87
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Yes. I thought about it a lot. Why experiment with something that needs to be fixed? I think I should leave it alone until I can get a good gunsmith to make it right. Anything I do at this point would be a waste of time and supplies on something that is wrong.
main reason is that shooting that shooting the gun evern with reduced cjarges with a bolthead that has not been properly head spaced to your chamber is dangerous at best and deadly at worst
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Old February 4, 2018, 09:55 AM   #88
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You are correct. Maybe I will reassemble it as was just for the sake of science to see what the powder does. I will still work it up from 50 grains though. This will also help with my discussion with the "gunsmith".
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Old February 4, 2018, 10:35 AM   #89
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Many times I have said reloaders do not understand what happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. If I had a case neck jam into the throat of the chamber I would suspect the extractor did not jump the rim of the case pm a push feed system, as a side note, if the extractor did not jump the rim of the case all of the clearance would be between the case head and bolt face. What does that mean? The primer is not supported, when fired it will push itself out of primer pocket and then the bad part, the case locks to the chamber and stretches between the case head and case body.
Seriously? If you are relying on the extractor to hold the case head against the bolt face, you are shooting a screwed up rifle. That is not the proper function of the extractor. The shoulder, belt, or rim (depending on how a cartridge headspaces) does that.you can take the extractor off a properly headspace rifle and the primer will not back out.
Sometimes I wonder if you give advice on how to fix something, or how to Jerry Rig it enough to make something screwed up kind of work. Primers backed out would be an excessive headspace issue, not an extractor issue. Could a strong extractor alleviate that particular symptom of excessive headspace? Maybe, but its not the cure as is neither a weak extractor the cause.

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Old February 4, 2018, 11:00 AM   #90
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Reynolds357, I can imagine the situation that Mr Guffey mentioned, where the extractor won’t allow the rim past it. But that still leaves me with trying to understand how the bolt could close if the rim is still jammed at the extractor. Wouldn’t the case shoulder encounter the end of the chamber and force the case rim past the extractor.

Anyway, if I had the rifle and the problem, i’d try to reduce variables. I’d shoot a few factory rounds. If that went Ok, then the problem lies with the reloads, not the rifle, chamber, or bolt head. I’d throw that powder away, get a new sealed pound, and start over.

Or just take the darn rifle to a different gunsmith. Or put it in the back of the gunsafe and buy a Tikka.
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Old February 4, 2018, 11:12 AM   #91
F. Guffey
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Seriously? If you are relying on the extractor to hold the case head against the bolt face, you are shooting a screwed up rifle. That is not the proper function of the extractor.
The OP has a problem with his rifle,

I started with:

Quote:
I would suspect the extractor did not jump the rim of the case pm a push feed system,
Try to understand I am only allowed to type so slow, on a push feed the case starts out in front of the extractor, the extractor has to jump the rim; I know of an individual that was told his case was too long from the shoulder to the case head, it was recommended he size the case down until the bolt closed, when he finished sizing the case down he developed a problem with failure to fire, the dents in the primers was very small etc.

If you did not understand the first part of my response you are wasting your time trying to figure out the rest of the response.

Again, if what he describes is true apply the part where I said "I would suspect the extractor did not jump the rim.."

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Old February 4, 2018, 11:16 AM   #92
F. Guffey
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I will still work it up from 50 grains though.
I wouldn't and I would back the bullet away from the rifling, I want my bullets to have the running start, I am the fan of the jump.

I want to know where the lands are located.

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Old February 4, 2018, 11:25 AM   #93
reynolds357
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Try to understand I am only allowed to type so slow, on a push feed the case starts out in front of the extractor, the extractor has to jump the rim; I know of an individual that was told his case was too long from the shoulder to the case head, it was recommended he size the case down until the bolt closed, when he finished sizing the case down he developed a problem with failure to fire, the dents in the primers was very small etc.
Maybe you would be more understandable if you typed in coherent sentences. All the above a single sentence? Not one period anywhere?
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Old February 4, 2018, 11:42 AM   #94
F. Guffey
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Seriously? If you are relying on the extractor to hold the case head against the bolt face, you are shooting a screwed up rifle.
I am used to that: a member jumps out into the fast lane and then missed second gear or worst, they run out of gas.

And I said I fired a case in one of my 8MM rifles; the 8MM was an 8MM06, the ammo I fired in the 8MM06 was 8MM57, the difference in length from the shoulder/datum to the case head is .127". Going back to your remark about relying on the extractor; I fired the case and then ejected a 30/06 case with a very short neck.

I know that makes absolutely no sense to anyone but Uncle Nick and me. And now I would like for one of you to apply the results to that silly little saying about the firing pin driving the case forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber.

And now: I would like to see the hands of those that believe a case can stretch .127" between the case head and case body without splitting..

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Old February 4, 2018, 12:41 PM   #95
Yosemite Steve
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Again, if what he describes is true apply the part where I said "I would suspect the extractor did not jump the rim.."
No. I would have felt that in the bolt closing. The extractor is .100 thick.

Quote:
I will still work it up from 50 grains though.
I wouldn't and I would back the bullet away from the rifling, I want my bullets to have the running start, I am the fan of the jump.
Given the enormous high pressure signs. 50 grains... the lower starting load from some manuals. I am going to try the same lands loads work up and then I am going to reduce to a .008 jump which is the COL that was too hot. Then I am going to try even shallower.

50, 50.5, 51.0, 51.5 52.0, 52.5, 53.0

IF I GET THE SLIGHTEST SIGN OF HIGH PRESSURE IT STOPS.

Quote:
And now: I would like to see the hands of those that believe a case can stretch .127" between the case head and case body without splitting..
What are you talking about? My case stretched .010"
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Old February 4, 2018, 12:44 PM   #96
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Guffy, I form cases for one of my Wildcats by relying on the extractor to hold the case head against the bolt face. That situation would be a prime example of egriegous headspace problems. That does not change the fact that your rambling is hard to understand due to dire lack of somewhat proper punctuation.
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Old February 4, 2018, 01:36 PM   #97
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Quote:
And now: I would like to see the hands of those that believe a case can stretch .127" between the case head and case body without splitting..
Quote:
What are you talking about? My case stretched .010"
You claimed your case stretched .010" when you fired it; it looks like I am the only one that knows/understands it did not. You made it clear you were measuring the length of the case from the end of the neck to the case head. The only way the case could increase in length is to stretch between the case head and case body. And now we start over with the problem you claim you have with the primers.

And now I would like to the hands of those that believe the case can stretch .127" between the case head and case body. I fired 8MM57 ammo in an 8MM06 chamber; after firing I ejected 30/06 cases with very short necks.

Hatcher was not as ambitious, he moved the shoulder of the chamber forward between .060" to .080" thinking the case would separate because he knew the case would not stretch .060" between the case head and case body. His cases did not separate and the cases did not stretch. That was many years ago.

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Old February 4, 2018, 02:46 PM   #98
Yosemite Steve
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Guffey, I am done with your riddles. If you don't have anything productive to say I would like if you kept your ideas to yourself.

I went to the range and duplicated the velocity while on the lands with the old bolt head and firing pin. Same exact charge of 53 grains but .008" longer COL to meet the lands. Every round had a very light bolt resistance on the lift after firing but not a hard lift. The primers were all fine just slightly flat with most of the bevel showing.

Here are the numbers.
IMR 4350
Shortened case with new bolt face
Brass volume 69.9 grains H20 before firing 71.2 grains h20 after firing and trimming to unfired length
3.310 COL at lands
53 Grains - 2611 fps - primer flowing into bevels of pocket - very stiff bolt lift

Old bolt face
Original SAAMI sized brass 68.0 grains H20 unfired
68.9 gr. after firing and trimming back to length.
3.310 COL .008" off lands
IMR 4350
grains - fps
50.0 - 2411
50.5 - 2422
51.0 - 2482
52.0 - 2542
52.5 - 2558
53.0 - 2612
All primers ok - light bolt lift

3.318 COL touching lands
50.0 - 2398
50.5 - 2420
51.0 - 2447
51.5 - 2509
52.0 - 2552
52.5 - 2536
53.0 - 2551
All primers ok - light bolt lift

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 4, 2018 at 04:45 PM.
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Old February 5, 2018, 02:33 PM   #99
F. Guffey
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Guffey, I am done with your riddles. If you don't have anything productive to say I would like if you kept your ideas to yourself.
Productive to say: In my opinion based on my observations you have posted information that was beyond logic. You took off on 'high pressure', your logic made absolutely no sense. As I explained your cases were 2.480" long, that is .014" shorter than my 30/06 cases. I can only assume others reading your information does not understand the case shortens when fired and the shoulder of the case prevents the case neck from leaving with the bullet. The neck on my cases expand and release the bullet first.

The bullet leaving: You want to hope the bullets leaves before the neck has any chance to lock onto it.

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Old February 5, 2018, 02:44 PM   #100
F. Guffey
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What are you talking about? My case stretched .010"
I understand, again, that leaves me to say I am the only one that understands.

If your case stretched tell me what part of the case stretched, and then tell me where, what and or how it stretched.

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