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Old February 3, 2018, 02:25 PM   #51
Yosemite Steve
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I have a friend holding onto an RCBS precision mic for me. He only wants $35 for it. I blew my wad on a gunsmith who isn't one and will resume playing with all of this as time and money permit. HiBC had it right and was asking the right questions all along. What was hard for me was letting go of time and money wasted on the wrong path. My ego took a small hit, but I'll be fine.

Ultimately, like HiBC said, it's a 30+ year old hunting rifle and "pretty good" will continue to drop my game in it's tracks as it has for close to 45 animals. I don't have a lot of experience with firearms but I am very resourceful and before I die I will be a master of the workings of my guns. I will try the lapping after some more inspection using the right tools. And, like most of life's problems, the best solutions tend to be the simplest so I will start there.

Thanks, everyone, for your input!
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Old February 3, 2018, 02:55 PM   #52
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I certainly do believe in getting over 70% of both lugs bearing.There is more than one way to do that.
If the receiver diaphragm has an impression that a locking lug will fall into,how will it lap out?You will cut the low spot as fast as the high spots.
You cut the diaphragm flat with a machine.I've done it in a lathe,Ive done with a boring head and a Bridgeport in neutral,hand turning the spindle and facing the boring head out,and using a rotary table with an end mill.They all work.

Pulling back on a bolt handle to apply cutting pressure when lapping a bolt is not good.You will cut heavy on the lug aligned with the bolt handle.There is some bolt.receiver clearance.The bolt body will deflect.I use a barrel shank stub to hold a brass spring loaded plunger against the bolt face.The loadis central and even.
But I do something else first.I put a thin film of Prussian blue on the diaphragm.If there is a high spot on a locking lug,I use an india stone there.Thats hard fitting.Stone off just the high spots.pretty soon most of the lugs bear.Then just a little lapping takes off the peaks of the machined surfaces.
There is another issue with trying to lap the diaphragm flat.The way lapping works,the grit bites into the softer material and becomes teeth. The softer material is a matrix that drives the teeth,like a file.When lapping,the harder material will receive the most cut.(ordinarily)
You will not flatten a dip out of a diaphragm by cutting away the harder locking lug.
Another problem with extensive lapping,its hard to control the grit perfectly. The bolt can get looser in the receiver.

Flat diaphragm,High spot stone the lugs,light lapping to finish,load the bolt on center and in line.
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Old February 3, 2018, 03:11 PM   #53
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I suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; judging from all of the answers and response I am the only reloader that can do that. I am the one that makes datums, I collect datums and I have been known to purchased datums, a datum is all I need when measuring the length of a case from 'THE DATUM' to the case head with a dial caliper or depth gage or a height gage or a Wilson case gage when used with a straight edge and feeler gage.
F. Guffey
okay I will bite. For engineers or draftsmen datums are nothing more than reference points on a drawing from which you take a measurement. For what we are talking about it is the diameter at a point on the case shoulder the point which SAAMI arbitrary selected. I have no clue as to what you are referring to when you say you make and collect them

SAAMI datums are arbitrarily chosen and while I use the same go no/go gages for the .243 the .308 Winchester and the .260 Remington for the .308 and the .260 SAAMI chose a datum of .400 diameter on the shoulder and for the .243 the datum point is where the shoulder diameter is .450.

If measuring a .308 Win case or a .260 I would use the case gage that has a hole that measures .400 in and from that point the base of the case head should measure 1.627 to 1.634 in distance for a .243 I would have no clue as to how far from that datum the face the case head should be unless I had a gage with a hole .450. So what you do is use a fired case and with the .400 gage and establish the datum for that gun and measure the shoulder bump from that datum

Any reloader that bumps the shoulder is using a datum point in doing so even though their case gage may not be .400. I have used sized a .45 ACP case to determine a datum point from which to bump a shoulder on the .308 family

Like I have said I am not a trained gunsmith but I have been working with engineering drawings for 49 years now and have a pretty good grasp of what a datum is in engineering terms at least. I am just curious as to what you are referring to

BTW datums and headspace is not rocket surgery. here is a good primer

RELOADERS CORNER: SETTING CARTRIDGE CASE HEADSPACE
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Old February 3, 2018, 03:27 PM   #54
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Well said,Houndawg.I have said pretty much the same to Mr Guffey.Datums are theoretical. A granite surface plate may represent a datum plane,but it is not a datum,and the (semi) flat bottom of a part is not a datum.

Mr Guffey likes to tell us about how he "Is the only...." Right.

I hope he has that lecture written down so he can copy and paste.I think I have seen it over a dozen times.

Did you see anything in there that would help anyone?

Post #28 is evidence I tried. Now I mostly just don't expect anything else.It is what it is.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...c+datum&page=2

Last edited by HiBC; February 3, 2018 at 03:58 PM.
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Old February 3, 2018, 03:43 PM   #55
Yosemite Steve
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And then there were the sheep hearders...
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Old February 3, 2018, 03:56 PM   #56
F. Guffey
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Did you see anything in there that would help anyone?
I did and I do, if a reloader had a go-gage or a no go-gage and or a field reject length gage he has to assume it is correct, one more time; not me. I can verify a head space gage, if I can verify a head space gage I can make one, I do not want to leave out the part where I have three machines that grind pilots, they grind pilots to length and they grind angles.

And you left out the part about in the big inning, reloaders started out claiming the datum was a line, they identified the line with an arrow pointing to it and calling it 'the datum line'. It took years for me to convince them the datum was a round hole, it was not a line but a circle, they could not use it for measuring because they could not figure from and or to.

And then there is that part where I make gages for verifying.

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Old February 3, 2018, 04:13 PM   #57
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Well said,Houndawg.I have said pretty much the same to Mr Guffey.Datums are theoretical.
Datums are absolute. I could say you should ask Hornady even though they can not make one that is reliable without using a transfer/standard. you could contact L. E. Wilson, problem; you would have to have me explain to you what they said and why their method/technique works.

For years and years reloaders thought the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage, For years and years I have use a straight edge and a feeler gage. I made a tool that included a dial indicator again, all I had to do was zero the gage.

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Old February 3, 2018, 04:42 PM   #58
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Guffy,on my loading bench is a black granite comparator stand with a 1 in travel drop indicator on it. Its been there for years.I use it with my Wilson case gauges.
I just would not make the claim "I'm the only reloader....)
And I,too,have made a lot of gauges,some of which were all calibrated,registered serial numbered and part of qualifying contract parts .As have a lot of other people.Its OK to shrug and say"So what?"
Among my peers its all in a days work.
Why would I ask Hornady about datums?
I'm trained and cerified in ASME Y-14-5 "Geometric Dimensioning and tolerancing"

Those are the international standards that decide if you get paid or made scrap.They have the weight of contract.

It doesn't matter what Hornady says.(Although I suspect they know Y-14-5)I'm qualified to read the print,inspect the parts,and tell them whether they get paid per ASME Y-14-5

Look it up.

Last edited by HiBC; February 3, 2018 at 05:12 PM.
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Old February 3, 2018, 05:20 PM   #59
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Datums are absolute. I could say you should ask Hornady even though they can not make one that is reliable without using a transfer/standard. you could contact L. E. Wilson, problem; you would have to have me explain to you what they said and why their method/technique works.

For years and years reloaders thought the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage, For years and years I have use a straight edge and a feeler gage. I made a tool that included a dial indicator again, all I had to do was zero the gage.

F. Guffey
Your humility is awe inspiring.
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Old February 3, 2018, 05:25 PM   #60
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Datums are theoretical.
I am not desperate for attention but when someone is widely indignant about ever thing I write and then says the 03 has a turned down bolt and datums are theoretical I have to wonder what qualifies the critic to make the insults.

One more time, the 03 Rock Island had a straight bolt, after the straight bolt the 03 bolt was bent back. And I have to ask What is it about a datum you do not understand?

I also said I took a picture of my gages, the picture weighed 800 pounds.

Do you know of another member on this forum that measure the length of the chamber in thoudandths without a head space gage. I was looking for gun parts between here and Ft. Worth, Texas when a man walked into a gun parts store looking for someone to measure his head space. The smith said he could not measure it because he did not have a gage. I did not get involved, I waited until the owner of the rare rifle left and then told the smith I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage; he asked 'HOW?!. "friendly alert"

I did a demonstration and he said "I'll be dammed".

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Old February 3, 2018, 05:33 PM   #61
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I'm trained and cerified in ASME Y-14-5 "Geometric Dimensioning and tolerance"
I am impressed, I would be more impressed if you demonstrated more skill, try to be more like UNCLENICK.

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Old February 3, 2018, 05:40 PM   #62
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Your humility is awe inspiring.
Reynolds357. When it comes to compliments I only have two speeches, one is short; it goes something like "Thank you", the other one is the longer speech; it goes something like "Thank you very much".

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Old February 3, 2018, 05:46 PM   #63
HiBC
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When you said "Straight Bolt" that,to me,describes the ones like a Mauser,sticking out horizontal.
As far as I know,they are all turned down.I learned long ago what you are calling "straight" had the potential for being low number,especially off e-bay or Sarco,etc. I choose the swept back,as those are supposed to all be good.
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Old February 3, 2018, 05:51 PM   #64
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Mr. Guffey is a genius and no one knows it but for two people. I am one of the two.
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Old February 3, 2018, 06:22 PM   #65
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I waited until the owner of the rare rifle left and then told the smith I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage
just as a guess here you use a set of calipers, a new case, and the firing pin. Disassemble the bolt to where you can measure the firing pin length and remove the extractor, load the round so it is flush against the bolt and firing pin is just touching the primer and measure the firing pin. Then use the firing pin to force the round against the shoulder and measure again.
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Old February 3, 2018, 06:33 PM   #66
Yosemite Steve
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Somehow I knew when I posted this thread that it would get thick. I'm just trying to solve a problem with my gun and learn something along the way. I'm happy I did. Unklenick and HiBC especially helped. Everyone who was either negative or irrelevant just made the problem more confusing and complicated.
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Old February 3, 2018, 06:48 PM   #67
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"Measure the chamber to the thousandth" without a headspace gauge.

Well,I have some questions.To what standard,or tolerance?Are you actually talking about agreeing with a headspace gauge that you don't have?To .001?How do you verify?
Certainly a sampling of new cartridges can be used with tape to get an idea if a rifle is near accepting a "NoGo",which is used for building rifles.That would pass "Field" with confidence. But you don't have a standard.A bushing gauge can be a standard of sorts.
Whether tape shims,or a loose primer pocket and a high primer,finish seated by the bolt face,measured over in the bushing gauge.You could drill and tap a primer pocket,maybe 10-32. Make a screwdriver tip for a cleaning rod begin with the screw sub flush,slot or Philips or whatever inside the case. Strip the bolt if necessary.Chamber the brass ,close the bolt.Run the rod with driver through the bore to the screw.Turn to contact. Remove the case and measure it in the bushing gauge.

But this is all BS. In 15 minutes I can have a gauge shipped for the price of a beer and a pizza.I have access to a LOT of headspace gauges,certainly for every cartridge I'm interested in.. I don't lower my standards to some workaround on headspace.
Maybe Mr Guffy,if you used headspace gauges,you would not need to use so many feeler gauges,long cases,shortcases etc to feed your fine rifles.
I don't do bad chambers.Hitting headspace is a cakewalk.If I get a bad gun,I fix it.My grandson will not have any crap to deal with when I'm dead.
Chambering,I could depth mic to a precision ball,such as a bearing,I can do the math.

But its all silly,moot,and irrelevant.I don't work that way.I do it right.I use gauges.I'll leave hacking to the hacks

Quote:
I am impressed, I would be more impressed if you demonstrated more skill, try to be more like UNCLENICK.
We do share respect for Unclenick.
But Guffy,the only skill I've seen from you is blowing smoke and patting yourself on the head.

Last edited by HiBC; February 3, 2018 at 07:14 PM.
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Old February 3, 2018, 07:16 PM   #68
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you can call me negative if you want Yosemite but I still would not fire that rifle until the head space is checked and verified by a competent gunsmith using gages. I have seen pictures of guns that blew up from not doing so and a hours worth of smith time is cheaper than a trip to the emergency room

Also as a Savage lover I am still curious what model Savage this was on and what slot you needed to dremel out.
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Old February 3, 2018, 07:23 PM   #69
Yosemite Steve
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you can call me negative if you want Yosemite but I still would not fire that rifle until the head space is checked and verified by a competent gunsmith using gages. I have seen pictures of guns that blew up from not doing so and a hours worth of smith time is cheaper than a trip to the emergency room
I appreciate your concern. I wasn't singling anyone out really but this thread kept getting way off track. Being someone who has little experience with these issues makes it hard to figure out who to listen to. I know I picked a crappy gunsmith. I'm trying to sort out the pieces (one at a time). Really though thank you for taking time to help out.

This gun has been a saga to try and get working.
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Old February 3, 2018, 08:04 PM   #70
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NP Yosemite, I tend to be cautious just by nature and being career military I figure the rules are there for a reason. Oh and that alternate headspace suggestion was an overly complicated method, there are simpler home grown methods but I don't consider them reliable. For that matter I don't consider anything short of a set of gages properly used reliable.

If you are going to be playing with that Savage for awhile get a set and a barrel vise and wrench. They are pretty easy to work on and a ton of online help is available
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Old February 3, 2018, 08:05 PM   #71
Yosemite Steve
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Ok. I found out the pressure problem. All of my brass was trimmed to 1.280". The round stretched to 1.290". Add .007" for the extended bolt face and add another few thousandths for the bound up bolt head that was not falling into it's recess (I have not determined that distance yet for sure). The case neck hit the end of the tunnel and put a squeeze on the bullet. That explains the high pressure issue me thinks.

So not worth the hassle.
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Old February 3, 2018, 08:29 PM   #72
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So you replaced the bolthead on a savage action and your headspace ended up .007 short? If so why not loosen the barrel nut turn the barrel out a turn, close the bolt on an unfired factory round with the bullet and powder removed and then turn the barrel in til it touches the shoulder of the case (making sure the case rim is under the extractor), back it off just barely and tighten the barrel nut. Typically a rifle should not have more than .006 headspace with .003 being supposedly perfect. Most factory ammo is set up to be no more than .003 short so it will chamber easily in a SAAMI minimum chamber. It would astonish many to know just how many rifles are headspaced in this fashion using factory unfired brass.
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Old February 3, 2018, 09:12 PM   #73
Yosemite Steve
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We're past that. But if you read the rest of the thread...
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Old February 3, 2018, 09:15 PM   #74
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All of my brass was trimmed to 1.280".
Typing error? 30-06?
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Old February 3, 2018, 10:01 PM   #75
Yosemite Steve
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Yes. 2.280
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