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Old April 27, 2017, 01:33 PM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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What's the ethical limit for x39?

Just curious more than anything:

I know there's alot of debate about hunting with .223 and where the line of reliable, swift lethality should be drawn regarding the game taken with the light .22 cal bullets, but what about x39?

If we take a range of up to 100m, what's the likely limit of x39 in terms of game?
Wild boar?
Deer?

Part of the reason is to see where Estonian Hunting law sits in terms of common sense.
The law here presently states that as long as the bullet was not FMJ and weight 130gr or more, a hunter would be legally allowed to go hunt elk (moose to you lot) or Eurasian Brown bears which seems optimistic for the old soviet cartridge.
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Old April 27, 2017, 02:44 PM   #2
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I load mine with 150 gr bullets and am at MAX load in the Hogdon book. I have no proof, but I would not feel good about shots out past 150 yards unless I was going into a soft area in a deer. I don't know that is just the "Feel" I get from animals I have shot over the years. It has to be a little more anemic with the 150 gr when you go a distance. If you reload, use 30-30 type bullets that will expand at lower velocities.
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Old April 27, 2017, 02:53 PM   #3
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I think of the x39 as having the same range as 30-30. But yeah 150 yards would probably be near or the limit.

As far as 130 grain and no FMJ as the requirement it's just a requirement. Lots of states/countries have requirements. The minimum isn't usually the best option but it's a start.
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Old April 27, 2017, 05:18 PM   #4
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You could look up a chart and check the velocity and foot pounds of energy at various ranges (100, 200, etc.) and use those numbers as a factor in your decision.
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Old April 27, 2017, 05:45 PM   #5
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Looking at a few ballistic charts it shows that at 200 yards x39 would have around 1/3rd of the power of a 30-06. 788 vs. 2115.

Speed on the other hand is 1699 vs. 2403.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/7.62x39...listics-chart/
http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-06-ballistics-chart/
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Old April 27, 2017, 07:26 PM   #6
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Yup, looking at Blind's chart, I'd say 150 yards would be the maximum distance for me, but that's just a matter of preference. I'm not sure about the ethical part, though.
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Old April 27, 2017, 07:34 PM   #7
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I've read a large number of posts through the years which claimed good success on Bambi with soft-nosed hunting bullets and generally range-limited to 150 or so yards.

It's fairly close to .30-30 performance, so the main limitation inside of, say, 200 to 250 yards would be the sights and group-sizing of a particular rifle.
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Old April 27, 2017, 10:35 PM   #8
reynolds357
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If you can hit, the energy is good to 275 or so. You are also getting advice from someone who will shoot deer at 300yds with pistols.
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Old April 27, 2017, 11:01 PM   #9
Danoobie
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I can only say the max range I trust the caliber to,
which is @125 yards, hunting.
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:28 AM   #10
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Smaller feral pig only. It likely is adequate for.
Many consider the 30 wcf marginal and some may even believe the 30wcf is inadequate period for use on big game. Although I don't believe so. Still to purposely use a cartridge that has even lesser capability than the venerable 30wcf has. That sir is where a line should be drawn for this cartridges use. Harvesting squirrel rabbit coyote or shooting fish in a barrel is more appropriate for the 7.62x39 use in my estimation. Not appropriate for deer size animals.
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:49 AM   #11
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People hunt deer, bear, boar, and even Elk with compound bows on a routine basis. Others do it with much more primitive bows.

While I get that some of the "lighter" calibers may have less room for error then some of the heavier calibers I think we tend to discredit them today.
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Old April 28, 2017, 12:21 PM   #12
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Where the trouble starts is mismatched ammo. If you use any old .308-.311 bullet, you will get into trouble. Many bullet manufacturers sell bullets specifically for the 30-30. A lot of people think this is because of the tube feeds on a lot of lever guns. That is somewhat true, but the main reason is that these bullets will expand at lower velocities. Some of the ammunition you see for the 7.62x39 is nothing more than hollow points with a filler. OK under 100 yards, but would you want to hit a 120 pound doe in the shoulder at 150 yards with that? I have been hunting with a 7.62x39 before soft point was available. The first imported "Hunting" ammo was a hollow point around 125 grains. Period. No filler. How would you feel about that @ 150 yards? Forget the books, charts, and other crap. Hunting is not done on paper.
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Old April 28, 2017, 01:12 PM   #13
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There's isn't much in the way of common sense in hunting regs, anywhere. Lot of 'em are written by civil servants with a political agenda or who don't know what they're talking about. H
It's more about the rifles the 7.62 x 39 comes in than the cartridge. However, no load, even the 150 and 154 grain loads(Tula and Wolf brands) are enough for moose. MV on 'em is ok(2104, but that goes way down and the ME is low(1514 ft-lbs.)
The real issue is people trying to use it with the 123/125 grain bullets. Hornady's 123 grain SST for example, has insufficient energy for deer at 200 yards.
There's really no comparing a commercial 7.63 x 39 load to any .30-30 load. Bullet weights are too different. 125ish vs 140 as the lowest .30-30 weight around.
"...with compound bows..." Different thing altogether. Bullets kill through shock. An arrow kills through blood loss.
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Old April 28, 2017, 03:35 PM   #14
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I can't say how far the rounds will kill ethically because I am not pushed it out very far, but my wife and i have now killed 11 antelope and deer with our AKs at distances from about 40 yards to about 250 yards. All worked fine.

The best results were from 122 and 123 soft points.
The 154 gr soft points open up very little even at close range.
The 122 grain H.Ps. shatter and don't penetrate well.

But I can say they are good to 250 on deer and antelope with good bullets.

I know hunters in Oklahoma and Texas that love AKs for hogs, but I think all their shot have been pretty close, 75 yards and less. I think they are all using Military FMJ
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Old April 28, 2017, 05:53 PM   #15
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That pretty much tells it there.
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Old April 28, 2017, 06:11 PM   #16
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Sure shot, I will respectfully disagree with everything you just said.
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Old April 28, 2017, 06:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Not appropriate for deer size animals.
There are herds of dead deer that dispute that theory.
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Old April 28, 2017, 08:10 PM   #18
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Rather than depending on energy numbers I think a better guide is impact velocity combined with the minimum impact velocity to cause that particular bullet to expand.

Of course energy is somewhat related. But some bullets need 2000 fps or more in order to expand, others 1600 fps or maybe a little less. It comes down to the individual bullet in each cartridge.

Some 7.62X39 loads will still do that out to near 300 yards. And still hit with more energy than 357 mag loads at the muzzle.
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Old April 28, 2017, 08:52 PM   #19
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If you have a bullet that will expand at 100 to 1500 fps it still is not going to be an effective hunting weapon when it gets down to 300 fps.
The 7.62x39 has less velocity with the same bullet fired from a 30-30. The 30-30 is a good close hunting gun and cartridge but it has its limits too.
Besides if you listen to the latest "wisdom" it takes a magnum to kill jack-rabbits these days. The animals must be getting tougher every year.
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Old April 29, 2017, 12:53 AM   #20
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Quote:
Sure shot, I will respectfully disagree with everything you just said.
Sir that is indeed your prerogative to critique. So than. Whats your thoughts on this subject rightside? {7.62x39 adequacy on deer size game and feral pig?}
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Old April 29, 2017, 04:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
People hunt deer, bear, boar, and even Elk with compound bows on a routine basis. Others do it with much more primitive bows.
comparing apples and oranges, bullets and arrows works in very different ways
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Old April 29, 2017, 04:23 AM   #22
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I have hunted pigs in Estonia and we were handed ratty civilian aks (regular rifle stock without pistolgrip) I did not care for it, when shooting driven game you want a rifle that suits you, that swings well, that shoulders well and you got a good cheekrest, the aks with some fixed 2,5x scope did not, and the complete disregard for the driving dogs really got to me ):

I mean it works, everything works if you hit them correctly

but I do think that an intermediate round is for people and smaller game, for big game a battlerifle round

30-30 barely gets by nowadays with the new hornady stuff otherwise i'd say 308win, 270win or 6,5x55

there is a certain faiblesse to get away with hunting with a lesser round and I don't get it
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Old April 29, 2017, 05:14 AM   #23
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comparisons

Blatently declaring that the 30-30 is marginal, and anything less is inappropriate, is a bit much and a bit of trolling. But I'll bite. By doing so, such calibers .44 and .357 mag, .44-40, ( carbines ) are also insufficient, as well as the .45 cal muzzleloaders with roundball or sabot, and .50 cal saboted (.429 slug) muzzleloader loaded light, etc.

Folks are having far to much success on whitetails, hogs and small bears with any of the above combinations, as well as the x39mm round, to support such an arguement. Proper bullet placement (good shooting) and bullet construction are the first keys to success on game, and the 30-30 and the x39 are no exception.

While I do not believe that a .223 is an ideal whitetail cartridge and there are better choices, I also am of the opinion that many folks are severely overgunned when it comes to whitetails. Whether I shoot my deer with a .44mag or x39mm carbine, or .243, .270, 30 '06 or a .308, if I shoot well and use an expanding bullet, I get a deer on the ground anywhere from DRT to 50 yds or so (sometimes more) regardless. Yes, the wounding sometimes seems more severe with the "real" deer cartridges, but the reaction and results with the animals are the same. If I had a tape all the shots and reactions from whitetails that I've taken with the above mix, there is no way whatsoever one could tell what rifle/caliber I used. Some drop at the shot, some do a death sprint, all end up in the freezer.

Ethical limits for the x39? Game up to 250 lbs, maybe 300 lbs, range about 175 yds, given a rifle that will group and with a worthwhile zero.
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Old April 29, 2017, 09:03 AM   #24
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Ah, yes. Sweden. Land of the Norma magnums.
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Old April 29, 2017, 11:59 AM   #25
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I have hunted deer with a 357 and it is a capable deer cartridge from a 6 inch barrel out to 50 yards. There is no way I would use it at 100 yards, though I am capable of hitting the vitals at that range. It simply doesn't carry enough speed or power at that range.
I have hunted with a 30-30 but it's limit is close to 150 yards. The 7.62x39 has less velocity (with the same weight bullet) than the 30-30 and the 300 BlackOut has even less velocity.
I have hunted deer with a 30-06 and limit my shots to around 200 yards. The gun and bullet is usable against game at twice that distance but with all the variables I limit the shot to 200 yards.

I'm sure we each have limitations on how far we are willing to use any given gun on game. Sometimes that limit is due to personal ability and sometimes it is based on realistic data on the "killing power" of the combination of gun and shooter, and sometimes it is the real limit on the potential of the gun and cartridge.
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