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Old June 4, 2017, 04:12 PM   #76
supercub99
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Great discussion guys, lots of good honest info and results. God knows I have played around and experimented with this, always trying to get a better understanding of the variables. One thing not mentioned a lot is the different makes and with that, formulations of brass. Some are similar, some are not. One will cook just right, another will glow like Rudolph the Red Nosed at the same setting. Humidity is another variable, I read a thread where someone found his timing changed summer to winter. Turns out, he had the garage door open in the summer and closed in the winter. He confirmed that variable by cooling or heating the brass in controlled temp and then annealing. I found that true as well. I keep the garage at 65 in the winter and it gets well over that in the summer.
Notice that I don't say anything about the specific makes of brass in relation to the timing. That's because frankly, I think that varies with whom is making what and when for the branders. It would be in my opinion, erroneous to assume it gospel to say whinchester is....X and Rem is Y. I will say this however, the most consistant is Lapua, that is because they do in fact control their brass from start to finish...or is that Swedish?...lol. They make if for some others but no one makes it for them.
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Old June 4, 2017, 04:22 PM   #77
RC20
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I am new to annealing. I have annealed several thousand cases by now....But still consider myself a novice.

As someone with a PH.D., I can attest that once you head down the rabbit hole of a science, like metallurgy, physics, statistics etc, that you wind up realizing just how ignorant you really are. It is why people specialize. Like medical doctors, some focus on the nervous system, some on cardiovascular, some on the skin.

Handloading is kind of like that. My brother is happy to take the book loads, and pick a charge near the middle He trims only when the cartridge is longer than book vale, doesn't care if they are different lengths. He doesn't anneal, mixes primer lots, brass lots, powder lots, and seats to SAAMI COAL. Most of his loads are 1-1.5 moa.

I on the other hand have at least tried most reloading tricks. Do a lot more case prep, anneal, turn necks etc etc. I made a load for his rifle once, his .375 HH working up the load. My load was about 0.5-0.75 MOA. When I told him all I had to do to get to 0.5 MOA he reminded me most/all of his kills are less than 200 yards .

What I'm saying is, I think some folks find a method that works well enough for them and there isn't anything wrong with it. The shouting down and ridicule that comes from folks is obviously unnecessary, and likely comes from those folks not wanting to believe there is more to it than they know.
JH gets very frustrated (I do to, usually not as much but I have had my warnings), that's a shame because I have learned a huge amount from him. We used to have a guy by the name of Bart B that quit participating (shooter). Hate to see it go that way.

In your case (pun intended) your brother told you that his results satisfied his needs, not that he was making the best ammo like you need for your needs.

That's up front and honest. This is different in that the claim is the annealing is doing what it is supposed to and obviously is not.

Where JH gets frustrated is the deniar end. To me that's like saying Global Warming is not occurring. We can argue what is causing it, but that its taking place and at a rapid pace?

I know what it takes to shoot sub MOA let alone sub 5/8 and it is indeed a number of small things and that includes annealing that actually does what its supposed to.

JH has immersed himself into the deep technical end.

So when someone says I have been successful for 20 years and offers not a whit of evidence that there is any science or details to back up the statement, he understandably gets frustrated.

My take is ignore those who don't want to learn though they will chime in, muddy the waters that are hard enough to navigate already.

Its fine to have your own world and reality, just don't inflict it on the world (though inflicting it seems to go with it) That's when the issues start.
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Old June 4, 2017, 04:39 PM   #78
RC20
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Great discussion guys, lots of good honest info and results. God knows I have played around and experimented with this, always trying to get a better understanding of the variables. One thing not mentioned a lot is the different makes and with that, formulations of brass. Some are similar, some are not. One will cook just right, another will glow like Rudolph the Red Nosed at the same setting. Humidity is another variable, I read a thread where someone found his timing changed summer to winter. Turns out, he had the garage door open in the summer and closed in the winter. He confirmed that variable by cooling or heating the brass in controlled temp and then annealing. I found that true as well. I keep the garage at 65 in the winter and it gets well over that in the summer.
Notice that I don't say anything about the specific makes of brass in relation to the timing. That's because frankly, I think that varies with whom is making what and when for the branders. It would be in my opinion, erroneous to assume it gospel to say whinchester is....X and Rem is Y. I will say this however, the most consistant is Lapua, that is because they do in fact control their brass from start to finish...or is that Swedish?...lol. They make if for some others but no one makes it for them.
He would make a good engineer!

I think what he said should be highlighted.

The brass is all different. He has showed me and I have seen that in my brief sole work as well.

So when I talk about the glow issue, that is (in my case) RP.

I do think some is consistent, RP has stayed the same weight across the 5 years I have been checking it and usually its number 2 in the older cartridges .

Newer ones its place on the pantheon changes.

It seems they have a setup or a source for older cartridges that is currently the same, newer cartridges are different. And it could change so the pay attention part and check results applies.

Good news for me is the brass I have he has as well so I can piggy back on what he finds out.

He has some I don't. It was very interesting to see that Lapua acts very differently than the rest. They all did it a bit differently, but Lapua was by itself.

And Humidity for sure, maybe even barometric pressure.

Another one I have to follow up on is PPU (I have it in 06 and 308 partialy)

Its all I have in 7.5 Swiss. Oddly, that seems to be a special European make, the primer pockets are extremely tight.

As it has none of the reported slag or issues with the primer hole, I suspect the 7.5 may be a different stream from regular (match) , but will test and see if I can find a difference.

I have not tested the 308 or the 06, but the 7.5 base is extremely hard, so hard it takes a dedicated effort to (i.e do a kind of crimp removal but to get a slope to the rim so the primers feed in better as well as a primer uniformer step).

While its not scientific I will do the same with Lapua (I have some range p[pickup Lapua that someone blew the primer pocket out of) and the other brass. Sort of a crude hardness test just out of interest.

So, clearly details matter a whole lot.

Never assume on past that its going to stay the same in the future.
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Old June 5, 2017, 01:44 PM   #79
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So when someone says I have been successful for 20 years and offers not a whit of evidence that there is any science or details to back up the statement, he understandably gets frustrated.
what's even more frustrating is when you use a technique which has been used successfully for many years by world class 1000 yard benchrest shooters. Scroll to the bottom of this article http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html.

Then come over to here and be told what you are going is dangerous and ineffective simply because you have not spent 500 dollars on the latest bench toy. The only difference between my method and theirs is that I have been using a hand held drill instead of one clamped in a vise. Now that is frustrating
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Old June 5, 2017, 02:29 PM   #80
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Hounddawg,
As long as what you are and have been doing works for you just accept that these guys are not talking about you. They are obviously talking about some backwards klutz that is using a hand held burning stick. I built an automated system but it uses a torch and it too is effective and does a good job. I always assume the guys that the "experts" are talking about is someone else.
Like mom used to say, "how important is it going to be in ten years?"
That has kept me out of many arguments.
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Old June 5, 2017, 03:49 PM   #81
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This thread reminds me of a few years back when the SS pin cleaning was discovered and anyone who questioned the obvious superiority was a Luddite. I recently relented and went that route myself but am now considering a hybrid method using wet cleaning without pins followed by dry tumbling to polish. I read about that here on another thread and seems to be a good compromise. So far I have seen no evidence that clean case interiors and primer pockets reduce chrony SD's but I will give it another feww hundred cases to be fair. But back to what we call annealing but on metallurgy sites is called stress relief.

One thing for certain is time is definite factor. I am not sure you can take a piece of brass up to 700 for 1 second remove the heat source and call it annealed. While I have yet to find this on a scientific paper with a chart showing time vs temp. Most people on the bench shooting sites agree that 7 seconds at 700F is the sweet spot for stress relieving brass, I would like to find that documented somewhere other than a blog however. That might be possible with a high end inductance machine that used a IR thermometer to throttle the coil heat or switched it on or off as needed. All the cases would have to have a equal polish of course for that to work.

Waiting on parts coming from China to build a automated system and as usual went with a cheaper and easier solution. Buying breakout boards and playing with Arduino is a bit of overkill for what I want to do so what I am thinking of doing is KISS and just doing 2 indicators on two cases. The first at 700 would give me a "start" time and then do a second case with a 800 or 850 indicator would be the "stop time". Since the stress relief is logarithmic not linear that means those two times could only be 2 or 3 seconds apart it should still provide the desired effect. I also think even if it is just close at least it will consistent if automated. It would be nice however to find a chart that shows how many seconds at 700, 725, 750 etc is required.

The brass does not care if that heat gets there in a second or five seconds as long as you don't let it go too far down past the neck. The trick is to keep the heat on long enough to have an effect but not so long you lose the spring back and at the same time fast enough you get shoulders collapsing from softening. I think I can do that with gas
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Old June 5, 2017, 05:51 PM   #82
mehavey
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I just run 750 inside the neck and call it a day.



.

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Old June 5, 2017, 06:28 PM   #83
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I anneal after every firing for both my hunting and precision reloading duties. Its just built into my time allotment. For my plinking 223, I don't anneal but every 3-5 firings. I never anneal pistol brass.

I even anneal virgin brass bought at the store. The neck tension is spot on, and if it isn't, a quick neck turn will straighten that out.

I use an automated annealing machine, but have been considering "upgrading" to an AMP annealer. I just dont know if I can justify the extra time it will take me to anneal one case at a time. Its a big tradeoff for the added benefit of having a "perfectly annealed case" everytime. My method, for now, works well enough.
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Old June 5, 2017, 10:03 PM   #84
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Shooter PRS: You obviously are in the mold of Metal God, you have worked on your process. I think if you can build the stuff that's great. I am far better a fixer than a builder so I go the way I think best for me. More in my vein than yours I think (good for me as I would be out of a job fixing things!)

Howndog: I am not saying what you are doing is dangerous, I am not saying its not effective to some degree. It may be too much and it may be too little. What I am saying is getting the control down is not easy.

As for the bench rest guys, many anneal each round, as they have such consistent results it may well be that they are under annealing which is not wasted, its just not fully effective.

Anneal each round and its under annealed you are staying even.

You obviously are not un safe, that manifests itself quite quickly.

But you can also see what Metal God and Soother PRS do to maintain quality control.

This is not condemnation nor meant as an attack. Its meant as a conversation and learning for everyone involved. JH brother is happy with what he gets, but he is also clear as long as he gets that 1-1.5 inches that's all he wants out of it. If that is what you get and works for you, then that is good enough.

But someplace in this establishing a scientific base for understanding where eyou are it (or me, my brother, Jeep Hammer etc) is what is needed. Anyone can then take that knowledge and apply it how it suits them.

What the goal is to remove the mythology from it and have it science based.

As both Supercub99 and Jeehhammer have noted, the carbon variable is there and you can be more consissant and accurate if its gone.

I am not there yet but will probably get there, but I know what is better, I just don't have the money right now nor the space. I will clump along with what I have for now and as a lot of things, and like you did with cleaning, move in that direction and then re-think it.

In your case you changed that as well and absolutely there is nothing wrong with it. I like my bright shiny brass cases and don't like the steel pin tumbling look (and that is just a whim or a bent, there is nothing scientific about it at all) . What I can admit is it is a bent, not that it magically gives me more accuracy (and possibly just the opposite)

I did some further experimenting last night. This time I turned the light off, it was cloudy so I was in a pretty dim spot.

I was back to 1.5 seconds before I consistently did not get some hint of red in some cases. That is sobering. I wrote the mfg, he is following the thread and will incorporate information from it into his instructions .

None of this is intended as a lecture and as long as we are having a conversation we can disagree. Sometimes the disagreement can get heated, that's when we all need to back off and try to re-frame it.

And I hope this is taken well, I am struggling to convey a concept.

I have a boss who thinks things happen by magic. He comes up with all sorts reasons why his failures are due to something else. That is virtually an impossible discussion, his failures are because he makes mistakes and does not understand what he is doing be it electrical, metallurgic, bearing etc.

I am far from perfect (don't tell my brother) but I do know when I don't know something and I don't invent a reason out of thin air.

I don't' know how often I have found a plumbing flare joint with goop on it.

That joint is not intended to have goop on it, if it leaks its because there is something wrong with it. Goop may cover it up for a time.

But as god is my witness, its not because its leaking, its because they use goop on threaded joints (rightly) and then assume it is right for a flare fitting.

It then fails years latter and you have to clean the now crusty goo off it and or replace it.

There is science and their is faith.

I have no issues with faith, one of the finest electrical engineers I ever worked with was a deeply faithful man.

What he did not do is apply faith to his engineering. He kept the two totally separate. He knew that praying did not keep linemen from dying. What kept them from dying was the proper procedure for taking down a line, making sure it was no longer energized and grounded as well.

Doing it all right, as best they knew, he still lost one of his linemen to electrocution.

While they did nothing wrong, the post analysis was that the section that was de-energized was so long, that there was a localized storm with lighting out of sight and they got an induced spike in the line and the lineman was between it and the ground.

He also knew it was not divine retribution. It had a physical reason it happened, they then changed operations so that there was a ground on either side of the lineman working. It had never happened before, they made sure it could never happen again (and passed that onto all other entities to let them know)

All fact based and science/physics, engineering.

Ok, I am rambling and I hope it helps to explain, if there is valid science , engineering , and fact, If its, well we did it for a hundred years that way, then I need to know what that was based on.
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Old June 5, 2017, 10:04 PM   #85
RC20
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I also think even if it is just close at least it will consistent if automated. It would be nice however to find a chart that shows how many seconds at 700, 725, 750 etc is required.
Agreed, I have seen that data someplace and will see if I can find it.
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Old June 5, 2017, 10:14 PM   #86
Stats Shooter
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One issue with a standarized time for every cartridge is that not all brass has the same ratio of copper to zinc. Norma is 72-28 while others are 70-30. Plus stuff like lake city, thicker, might take longer than win with thinner necks
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Old June 5, 2017, 10:28 PM   #87
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The time for the molecular action to take place varies with the temperature, the thickness and the amount of annealing you desire. We are working with metal that is no more than .015" thick. You can anneal brass at about 400F if you hold it at that temperature for hours. With a piece of cartridge brass we want to heat the neck and shoulder high enough and long enough to anneal it without letting the base get to 220F. If you heat brass to between 700 and 800F annealing is done in the time it takes to get to that temperature. If it goes over 800F then you have to harden the brass before you can use it. The only way to harden brass is to work it so it is best to keep the temperature below 800F. Using tempilaq 750 on the inside of the neck you can tell when it is at 750F. That is as close to a perfect anneal as you can get for cartridge brass. The color of the brass is not important, If you are using a propane torch and the flame itself starts to turn yellow or orange that piece of brass is over annealed. The change in flame color tells you that materials in the brass are being released and burning. (this assumes you are working with clean brass) Obviously if your brass is oily or dirty the flames will turn color as the contaminants burn off.
In the time it takes to get the brass from 400 to 750F it has completed the process. Different thicknesses of brass and larger diameters of brass will take longer to heat in the same flame. You need to be able to regulate the time in the flame or the heat from the flame. In my annealer I regulate the flame using tempilaq to set it. As long as I am annealing the same cartridges I can be assured that they are properly annealed. When I change to a different cartridge I use tempilaq to reset the flame.
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Old June 5, 2017, 10:43 PM   #88
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Hounddawg,
You and I interpret metallurgy differently.

The basic objective is to reform grain structure into an optimal size & orientation for me.

Since cold working, including firing since the case doesn't reach annealing temperature during the firing process, breaks grains and allows molecule migration between grains, ruining the consistency at OPTIMUM for cartridge case brass.

Cartridge brass (around 30% zinc) starts out with a favorable grain structure, as it's worked into case shape, including the drawing process, the grains break smaller & smaller, more & more stray molicules cross the border out of the grain structures causing faults.

There is a reason all of the higher quality civilian brass, and US military brass is annealed several times during the production process...

Sodium hydroxide & hydrogen peroxide will show up grain structure under relatively low magnification, I use 10x to 30x power magnification on mounted, polished & treated samples,
I don't use 'scientific' grade chemicals, and I don't use a certified comparator microscope the defense contractors require, since I'm not currently doing any defense contracts.

But the results are the same, certification doesn't mean the expired certification certificates on my equipment renders the results useless.
It's an optical comparison, not a chemical component breakdown.

Annealing,
First allows free molicules to be reabsorbed by the chrystals structures, reducing voids (faults) between chrystals.

Voids, free molicules, are 'Faults' between chrystals.
Heating imparts the energy needed for those free molicules to cross the barrier and be absorbed back into the chrystals structures,

That's why ANY annealing is 'Good' annealing...

As MORE heat (energy) is imparted into the brass, the chrystals start to combine.
Barriers between chrystals start to break down and larger, more oriented chrystals form.

This is the point where it gets critical for annealing cartridge brass into something OPTIMIZED for what we are doing with it,
The OPTIMUM chrystal size, minimum number of faults between chrystals, with a favorable grain structure, suited to the purpose.

Overheat the brass, and it goes mono-chrystaline, very large chrystals that cannot move without shattering and creating faults again.
Even minor cold working of the brass in a mono-chrystaline state will cause micro fractures that become full on visible cracks.

At that point the brass is ruined...
Micro chrystaline condition from cold working CAN be done at home by the average guy, recombining free molicules back into a reasonable size chrystaline structure, even orienting those reasonable size chrystals into grains.

While there isn't any PRACTICAL way to REDUCE overall chrystal size without reaching melting point, freeing molicules to reform during the cooling process...
(Practical: you would have to cold work a brittle piece of brass until you broke the grain structure back up into smaller parts, WITHOUT cracking the brass or otherwise rendering the brass useless)

At this point, since the brass was molten, you no longer have a cartridge case, and unless you want to control cooling, roll into sheets, stamp out the base cup blanks, draw the blank into a case, do the machining to make it caliber specific, the case is junk when overheated.

It's not about 'Hardness' exclusively, which is why I ignore comments about 'Case Strength',
Strength, and 'Hardness', come from the proper formation of chrystaline structure & minimizing faults between chrystals,

'Hardness' is simply an INDICATOR of what that grain structure is doing, without mounting, polishing, chemically treating & optically inspecting the grain structure directly (which I dislike doing, it's time consuming & expensive).

When I give temperature specifics, it's not 'guessing',
Around 680*F to 730*F WILL break down barriers on the grains, reabsorbing stray molicules, (talking seconds to tenths of seconds)

While 750*F, given some time (talking microseconds) WILL allow grains to properly orient as they combine & 'Grow',
While 800*F and above is the point a home annealer will allow the grains to grow way too large to be 'Optimum' or even useful if you keep heating...

It's not about some mystical candle or chant, or even some ritual involving drills & torches (Bevis & Butthead playing with fire & power tools),

It's about the science of metallurgy, and the physics of imparting energy into the brass, and how that brass reacts to the energy... Physics, not 'Faith' or old magazine dogma.

I don't particularly care much about how anyone does what they do, as long as they don't try to sell it as fact/science,
If a candle or alcohol burner 'Works' for someone, that's fine with me...
Just don't try to sell it as scientifically consistent.

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Old June 5, 2017, 11:32 PM   #89
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I agree with the TIME consideration, thicker brass will take longer since more energy has to be imparted to the case with any GIVEN source.

I agree that not all brass formulas are the same, anyone that's observed rust specks on a brass case knows there are impurities in case brass,
And there are also things like silicates, minerals & trace metals in each companies brass formulas,
And all that will have to be considered if you want the 'Perfect' result...

Since very few of us use exactly the same brand of case, made in exactly the same lot, from exactly the same batch of raw brass, you should probably be flexible,
Or buy all the test equipment message to sample, mount, polish, chemically treat your samples, and you should also invest in a scientific grade comparator microscope...

If you just want consistent brass that holds the bullet consistently, then there really isn't any need for that since temperature testing means are available easily, and there are several sources of rough data on temperature duration available that will get you VERY CLOSE to optimum.

There are some simple, and obvious do & don't guidelines,
Don't anneal dirty brass,
Do anneal before sizing,
Don't overheat, ect.

As I've posted before, annealing dirty brass changes the temp/time needed, dirty brass will absorb the contaminants, the grain barriers are down and the brass will 'Suck' up anything,
You don't want to breathe the contaminants.

Annealing before sizing will give you a more precise & consistent sizing.

Overheating the brass makes it go mono-chrystaline, effectively ruining it.
Easily proven by gauging the hold the case neck produces on the bullet, there won't be much in the way of consistency if overheated.
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Old June 6, 2017, 07:53 AM   #90
F. Guffey
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Quote:
I even anneal virgin brass bought at the store. The neck tension is spot on, and if it isn't, a quick neck turn will straighten that out.
How many neck tensions do you have after annealing? And then there is interference fit or crush fit. I use bullet hold, when it comes to bullet hold I want all the hold I can get. And then? There is the time factor; If I reduce bullet hold will the bullet be released earlier from the neck?



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Old June 6, 2017, 08:22 AM   #91
hounddawg
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It's not about some mystical candle or chant, or even some ritual involving drills & torches (Bevis & Butthead playing with fire & power tools)
was that remark really necessary ?

In case you missed or ignored this link http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html in the dark ages before overpriced automated systems and equally overpriced induction annealing toys were available world champion and thousands of non world champion shooters were using the drill and darkened room method. The automated carousel units were just being introduced less than 10 years ago and somehow people did successfully treat cases before they were widely available or practical

Just how did you anneal before automated carousels became the vogue for annealing a couple of years back?

To me the induction system is just a very expense heat source. It's advantage is that the heat is almost instant and the time is very controllable. The downside is it seems to be too fast, as I keep pointing out annealing is not just a matter of temperature but also time.e. maybe try heating them up to 750 or 850 before cutting power. Again though using a automated carousel with a 30 dollar torch system will stop the heating just as effectively as cutting the power to a induction coil. The only real plus to induction is that the heat is applied evenly without needing to have the case rotating

keep in mind that unless that brass is staying hot enough long enough you are just wasting time and might as well not bother at all. If the induction equipment regulated the heat to stay withing a set range it might be worth the money but as far as I can tell it the home units are either full on or full off. If I am mistaken on that please correct me

Speaking of temp control last eve I discovered my old Fluke 62 infrared will not give me an accurate reading on hot cases. It's max temp is a little over 900 F and it was impossible to get a tight enough focus just on the case neck. I sacrificed a couple of old LC case's and attempted various angles with no luck. The thermocouple for my 116 multimeter is limited to 500F so that is also out. I was going to try to use the infrared to "calibrate" my home built unit but instead will just use the method the poster above uses and that is just some 750 tempilaq on the inside of the neck. For those who really want to get down in the weeds there are electronic temp recorders with thermocouples that are rated above 1000 F available for less than 50 bucks. It would be hard to get a reading on a spinning case with a physical thermocouple but on a induction system the heat is being generated in a 360 manner so spinning of the case is unnecessary anyway
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Old June 6, 2017, 09:16 AM   #92
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As to the question,
I read the article, and the author is hung up on 'Hardness' rather than optimum grain size & structure and removing occlusions/defects.
That's actually what makes the brass fail, not the annealing process.

Not a metallurgists so he gets a pass on the details since the folks reading metallurgy from a gun magazine won't know the difference anyway.
They probably won't realize he contradicts himself several times,
And that the entire article is an advertisement for an annealing accessory.

As for annealing,
I started with one torch and temp stick, moved to three torches with the case static,
The biggest improvment in consistancy I saw with gas was,
A precise timer,
And a gas regulator,
Switching from oxygen gorged 'Jet' torches to something more compact and a little less dependent on humidity/barametric pressure & oxygen content being added, all of which change with atmospheric conditions.

I built a turn table 20+ years ago after seeing one at a manufacturer's open house.
Has nothing to do with consistancy, it was simply a way to deliver the cases from a case feeder drop tube...

As for the 'Bevis & Butthead' comment, I was that guy...
Young, ignorant, and believing what I read in gun magazines,
With a plumbers torch & a drill, wearing an AC/DC shirt, trying to backyard engineer what I'd read... Until I saw how it was actually supposed to be done...

Ignorant means you haven't learned yet.
Stupid means you know different, but do it wrong anyway...

I'm NOT a cartridge brass engineer... didn't spend 4 or 6 years in collage, another 4 or 6 years training in...
So I learn something new every time I get the opertunity to talk to a brass engineer, and I had to hire one for a defense contract that gave me an (expensive) education in cartridge brass...

And just in case someone doesn't know, general metallurgists have to specialize in brass, there is an entirely different curriculum and certification to become a brass engineer.

Until you have tried to produce a conical brass spring to military/aerospace tolerances, you don't know what a complete brain meltdown is!

20,000 ways to screw it up, only one way to get it right, and you have to PROVE you got it right to a bunch of qualified inspectors that ARE going to cross section, destructive test, chemically analyze, etc.

You WILL buy a lot of expensive equipment, and you WILL learn to use it...
Or you won't get paid, simple as that...

As my EDUCATION progressed, I've simply moved to electro-magnetic induction because it makes sound scientific sense,
No trying to regulate the heat source, the brass heats from its own interior on a molecular level, no contamination carried in from 'Gas' or a heating die, precise timing control, down to the 1/10 or 1/100 second without mechanical linkages creating timing problems...
Just makes sound scientific sense and since the price is VERY reasonable, no excuse not to electromagnetic.
Energy savings with electromagnetic also, something I'm watching since I'm solar powered, and there is a limit to my energy production.

Last edited by JeepHammer; June 6, 2017 at 09:34 AM.
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Old June 6, 2017, 12:21 PM   #93
hounddawg
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Jeep do you have a link to a paper that shows time vs temp, I still cannot find any sources for the 700 and 7 seconds other than internet blogs and posts.

On the authors of that article you are right, they are they are not brass engineers however they are world class shooters who have annealed cases thousands of times successfully. Success being defined as winning 1000 yard international bench rest matches. Also one of the authors marketed one of the first carousel automatic annealing machines. While not scientific proof that their methods work, accomplishments do count for something.

I briefly considered using a gas modulating valve controlled by a raspberry pi but until I can find a way to monitor the brass temp of a spinning case it is not practical nor even needed in my opinion. Way too much overkill for a simple problem, same as how simple case cleaning evolved from washing them in a bucket and drying, to dry tumbling, to ultrasonic cleaners to stainless steel pins. My cases sure are prettier now but is a shiny inside really going to do anything for accuracy in exchange for the effort required ? I have shot some pretty good bugholes with cases that had no more cleaning than a couple of hours in a bucket of soapy water and a good drying off, and no I cannot prove that either other than posting some pics of my targets which could be easily faked if I were of that nature

As far as the magnetic induction goes I don't see where the advantage lies. As long as the heat is applied evenly, maintained in the proper range for the proper amount of time I don't think the brass cares whether the heat came from a chemical or electrical source. Until they refine that 500 dollar Annie to the point where it can regulate the temperature to within 50 degrees F for a specific amount of time I will stick to my 19 dollar gas torch. Couple that to a automatic carousel either home made or store bought that you can set the time on and a 10 dollar bottle of 750 tempilaq just and it will be just as effective if not more so at getting consistent neck tensions in my uneducated opinion

I might be missing something but seems to me the magnetic induction method heats the case up too fast and does not hold the temp long enough for it to be effective. I don't hold a degree in metallurgy here but I did pass the Navy's nuke power school so I can grasp technical subjects and every thing I can find tells me the brass has to be at a given temp for x amount of seconds for the process to be worth while.

When magnetic induction machines get refined to that point and the price drops to a more reasonable level I may consider one. Until then I think a more cost effective way for me to improve my groups is to take that money and spend it on things that give more trigger time. Just my 2 cents worth
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Old June 6, 2017, 01:39 PM   #94
ShootistPRS
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All annealing machines are capable of over annealing because they have a heat source that produces more than 750F. Annealing just the front part of a cartridge requires that we use a heat source that works fast enough to heat the front end of the case without allowing time to heat the back end of the case. The time it takes for the neck and shoulder to go from 400F to 750F is all the time necessary to properly anneal the cartridge. You not only don't have the capability to hold the case at that temperature for any given time there is no need. It is a simple process, just heat the neck and shoulder to 750F and then remove it from the heat source. you can do it by hand, with a rotating drum or with an induction heat device. If you don't get to the right temperature then the case does not anneal to the correct level. If you go more than 50F hotter you have over annealed the case. If you get it too hot you ruin the cartridge for its intended use but you can make some decorative displays with it.
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Old June 6, 2017, 02:50 PM   #95
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Houndog: I have to express a bit of surprise that someone who has passed the nuke power school is having a problem with the concepts. Surface of sub?

While I didn't, my brother did go through nuke school. I have always admired the sub guys and more so the nukes after I saw what it took to get through that school (Nukie Poo U and Prototype in Idaho?)

From what I know of the process, some of what was written in that article makes me cringe. Their temperature control is virtually non existent. They do mention the tools I have used (temp stick and now the Templac)

A dull maroon (and will stand corrected) is another word for a shade of red and too far. Shade changes to suggest results.

While off topic, this is the same issue that resulted in the famous early 1903 issue with shattering receivers when hit with a hammer. People using their eyes to asses a heat process.

What JH take about is variables such as linkages and some hysterias built into any system that can then take something pretty close to precise off base.

Another aside, what having cases in water does in guaranteed you will never ruin a case on down, its impossible. Can't transfer heat into water fast enough. And you have to laugh, by the time they tip the case over, any quench to the process (even if its just to stop the heat build up) is way gone.

That does get back to how its been gone about it all these years. If they are successful, they are under annealing but just enough that they are maintaining enough spring that the next round adjusts it back to sub optimal but better than none.

Of have they gotten their other process down so good that the neck tensions is hidden in the noise?

I read a an account of something like the 10 best bench rest shooters in the country and what was important. Not one of them was in full agreement with any other and only about 40% of them had cross agreement on which ones were important.

So, this weekend, my mission is to get 800 and the next one up temple stick (I know where they live) and experiment a bit more.

I do know my timing is now down to 1.5 seconds and the 750 did melt but did not turn black inside the case mouths. Good thing I have a lot of old brass to play with.

And adding in a point. One of the most important aspects of production is the industrialization process.

Realistically by using an Annie ($350 which includes shipping) I am in the hand prototype stage (JH has gone onto make it higher rate production with machinery)

The big boys? They use gas. It has to work better for them on that scale but you can get they have the process down pat, took more to get it there but the long term savings pay for it.
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Old June 6, 2017, 02:52 PM   #96
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Quote:
One issue with a standardized time for every cartridge is that not all brass has the same ratio of copper to zinc. Norma is 72-28 while others are 70-30. Plus stuff like lake city, thicker, might take longer than win with thinner necks
True. That is why you have to test each mfg and come up with a safe average even for them.

What I don't know is if the Lapua that acts so different is getting the same end result.

That will take some templag and or temple stick down in the neck.
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Old June 7, 2017, 08:55 AM   #97
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Quote:

All annealing machines are capable of over annealing because they have a heat source that produces more than 750F. Annealing just the front part of a cartridge requires that we use a heat source that works fast enough to heat the front end of the case without allowing time to heat the back end of the case. The time it takes for the neck and shoulder to go from 400F to 750F is all the time necessary to properly anneal the cartridge.
A good practice that I think is useful, is to take some old warnout cases...or if you don't have any, go to the range and pick some up. Use tempilaq to see how long it takes to anneal the neck properly. Then, using 450 degree tempilaq all the way down the side of the case to the casehead, see how long it takes to "unsafely" anneal the case.

This is obviously pretty unscientific and rather obvious, but long bottleneck cartridges i.e. .270 win, .30-06, .300wm etc. are very forgiving in that it takes being in the heat for quite a while to accidentally anneal the casehead.

But, on cartridges like .223, or the wsm family, it wouldn't be that hard to do, especially in the "neck glow" crowd who thinks the neck has to glow before it is annealed. In .223, at the temp where I set my torch for most annealing, it only took an extra 4 seconds to melt the tempilaq 450 down to the casehead.
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Old June 7, 2017, 11:23 AM   #98
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My point it that if you try to hold a case, any case, in any annealing machine at 750F for even a second you have overheated the case neck and shoulder. The temperature produced by the flame or coil is well beyond 750F. You don't have to heat the case head to ruin the brass.
The annealing of the neck and shoulder is done in the time it takes to get the neck from 450F to 750F. As soon as it reaches 750F the job is done. You don't need to hold it at that temperature for any extra time and if you try the temperature will quickly go to over 800F.
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Old June 7, 2017, 12:45 PM   #99
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Quote:

The annealing of the neck and shoulder is done in the time it takes to get the neck from 450F to 750F. As soon as it reaches 750F the job is done. You don't need to hold it at that temperature for any extra time and if you try the temperature will quickly go to over 800F.
Agree, which is why I set the timing such that as soon as the Tempilaq 750 begins to melt, the case is immediately removed from the heat source. It is the best I can do right now for a consistent anneal without under or over annealing
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Old June 7, 2017, 12:49 PM   #100
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Mississippi,
That is as good as it gets. You can't do a better job of annealing your brass even in a lab.
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