The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 25, 2011, 09:03 PM   #26
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,768
Varget or RL-15 under 150 Hornady, Corelokt, or Sierra.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 09:20 PM   #27
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
I second RL-15. I have a Savage model 10 also. Trash the Varget and try RL-15 with a GM210M primer. 168 gn bullet with 43.2 gn Rl-15 and a COL of 2.80.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 10:17 PM   #28
level10
Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2011
Posts: 32
308 load

I have had very good results with imr 4895 and varget . The varget typically doesnt meter well
level10 is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 10:20 PM   #29
JHLL
Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Posts: 50
I'll second the IMR 4895
JHLL is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 12:53 AM   #30
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
people who use rl-15 over varget...is that what your rifle likes or is it preference or what? Just curious
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 09:59 AM   #31
oneoldsap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2009
Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont
Posts: 1,602
W-748

165 Speer SPBT over 45 Gr. of W-748 has killed a bunch of deer for me and a couple other guys at my camp . I use a standard WLR primer and have never had a hint of ignition issues , and it gets cold up here and in Canada where I hunt !
oneoldsap is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 10:40 AM   #32
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
if I am usig same brass in only one rifle and neck sizing only do I need a headspace guage? Shouldn't the case stay the same only the neck expands? Trying to determine if I need a headspace guage immediatly or if it can be added down the road. Thinking about getting the Hornady Lok N Load comparator body and adding the bullet comparator bushing and headspace bushing for my caliber rifle but not sure if that is a MUST at this point. Only loaded 3 batches of ammo so far
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 11:17 AM   #33
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
The hornady gauges will help you to properly set shoulder set back when setting up your fl die which will eventually need to be done to ns brass.

After a few firings and ns, the brass will have such a close fit that they will become hard to chamber and will need to be fl sized.

I have switched to fl sizing everything. With a properly set up fl die, there is no accuracy loss, they last just as long, and they chamber easily every time.
mrawesome22 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 04:32 PM   #34
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
anyone trust/use the method of using fire-formed brass and then neck sizing only enough so that bullet goes in with slight finger pressure and wont fall into case then load slowly into chamber and then use that as a COAL guage? Or is that not accurate? seen alot of videos online and a few suggested that to me but not sure if it is a good idea? Tried it with Hornady 165 SST for my 308 Savage 10 24" 1:10 twist rate and got an avg of 2.830 in


videos I saw"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-D1...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECOao...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaA3GECbbVA

Last edited by browninghunter86; January 1, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 05:18 PM   #35
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,747
You can also resize the neck fully, then saw a lengthwise slit into it. You then have the bullet held in two brass fingers. I haven't watched the videos to see if they do this, but I've just pushed the case and bullet into the chamber by hand, then pushed a brass or wood rod in from the muzzle to push it out. I don't want to pull the case out with the extractor on the bolt because the bullet could get stuck lightly in the throat and be slightly pulled out before you see it. I also don't want to have to bother removing ejectors, which can also move the bullet by pressing it against the side of the chamber as it withdraws.

Using fireformed brass is only valid if you are going to neck size-only. You want to use a case sized the way you will actually use it in the gun. Cases resized shorter than your fireformed round get you a length measurement that is too long for the shorter cases.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

Last edited by Unclenick; January 1, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
Unclenick is online now  
Old January 1, 2012, 06:11 PM   #36
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
I am using lee collet neck sizing die at this point with brass fired from my rifle and will only use it in this one rifle. Brass picked up at range or given to me will be full length resized and examined for defects
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 06:36 PM   #37
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,747
For your neck sized brass you are good to go. When you pick up range foundlings and resize them, though, you will want to see how much shorter the shoulder is than on the fireformed cases you have and seat your bullets deeper by that amount. Remember, the shoulder is what the case stops against in the chamber, so if it has been pushed further toward the head by the sizing die, it will let the neck go that much further into the neck portion of the chamber.

To compare the shoulder datum, if you don't have a case comparator gauge, use a caliper and spacer whose hole diameter is somewhere between the width of your shoulder at the neck and where it meets the sides of the case. Just set it on the neck sized case and zero it, then set it on the resized case and it will show you how much deeper the bullet should be seated.

__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old January 1, 2012, 07:15 PM   #38
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
with found brass couldn't I just Full Length Resize back to factory standard and trim it if need be?
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 01:02 AM   #39
dmazur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
Quote:
with found brass couldn't I just Full Length Resize back to factory standard and trim it if need be?
Absolutely.

But it's hard to resize to factory dimensions if you don't have a gauge...

If you have factory ammo,and don't have something that references SAAMI dimensions (like a Wilson gauge), I suppose you could assume the factory ammo is correct and measure its shoulder to head dimension with the improvised spacer shown above. Then carefully adjust the FL die until you get resized cases that measure the same, using the same spacer.

Bear in mind that the factory ammo spec may not be the best for brass life in your rifle...
__________________
.30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong
dmazur is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 01:26 AM   #40
dacaur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2010
Posts: 733
I use varget and 165gr SST's in my savage edge. Hodgen states 46 gr is the max for this combo, but hornady states 44gr is the max... using remington brass it bucked me at 44 grains, but shoots great at 43.8, which is what I used to take my first ever deer this year, well, last year now, 2011 anyway... best group with this load was under 1/2" at 100 yards.... I load to 2.800"
dacaur is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 09:10 AM   #41
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
people who use rl-15 over varget...is that what your rifle likes or is it preference or what? Just curious

I have just found it to be more accurate in my case.Varget is probebly # 1 powder that gets used im sure. But after countless load work ups with it,the guy that got me into comp shooting told me to try RL-15 once. I messed with it for about 10 different loads and the results were very impressive to say the least. The biggest kicker for me was it's $6.00 per LB cheaper. ( i can shoot more). All the other powders here that are getting mentioned (IMR) ect. Im sure they all perform as well also. It boils down to what your rifle likes to shoot. I did get good accuracy from Varget,but found i got better with RL-15.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

Last edited by 4runnerman; January 2, 2012 at 09:48 AM.
4runnerman is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 10:45 AM   #42
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
So if I do not have a bullet comparator 2.800 is from base to tip of bullet or to the ogive? I am either getting the Hornady Lok N Load bushing(headspace and bullet) or the LE Wilson guages for headspace and PTG bullet comparator.......

I loaded up a empty round and seated it way out and kept slowly and gently trying to chamber it and close the bolt, of course the first several times it would not close since it was too far into the lands so as soon as I made 0.001" adjustments and the bolt closed I seated it another 0.023"into the case. Is that ok to do this to get me my guns COAL to be just off the lands? This method closed the bolt properly at 2.833" so my COAL from my seating die is 2.810"
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 02:32 PM   #43
dacaur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2010
Posts: 733
yes 2.8" is to the plastic tip of the bullet. I dont have a headspace guage at all since im necksizing only and only have one .308, I basicaly just loaded a dummy round to 2.8" and made sure it chamberd easily.... I didnt try any longer, since I get great accuracy at 2.8".....

Last edited by dacaur; January 2, 2012 at 02:42 PM.
dacaur is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 02:51 PM   #44
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,747
Browninghunter86,

Let me clarify a few points. I'll start by putting in my terminology illustrations below, just so we are sure to be on the same page.



The 2.810" number is the SAAMI maximum Cartridge Overall Length (COL) for a .308 cartridge to be sure of fitting in a SAAMI compliant magazine. The SAAMI minimum COL is 2.490", to ensure the round will still feed from a SAAMI compliant magazine reliably. You cartridges may be seated anywhere in that range and still be expected to feed from a magazine. You can, of course, load them shorter (a squib load with a .32 lead wadcutter flush with the case mouth, for example) but you may have to feed these singly as they may not strip from some magazines without jamming. You can, of course, load them longer if your throat is far enough forward that this does not cause the ogive to jam into the lands (which raises pressure around 20% typically, so the load must be about 10% lower (that makes about 20% less pressure) if you intend to do this on purpose). However, again, the longer COL's may not fit into or feed from a magazine, so they would have to be loaded singly.

Nobody can tell you what COL will give you the right ogive distance off the lands. That's because different bullet designs have the ogive different distances from the bullet nose. You load to ogive spec to control throat jamming and to COL to control magazine feeding; two different measurements for two different purposes, though controlling either one controls the other, so you want to keep an eye on both.

Below is an illustration in which both cartridges are loaded so their ogives are the same distance off the lands, but the COL's are very different because the nose designs are very different. This drawing is an exaggeration compared to what you usually find. Most round nose bullets made now have tapers off the nose to get the ogive further back from it. Only a 110 grain .30 carbine type bullet shape would do what you see below. On the other hand, you have VLD bullets whose ogives are much longer than typical, so they can be difficult to impossible to load within the magazine feed length limit.



Note that the Hornady LNL gauge has both bullet ogive and case comparator inserts available for it that would substitute for the spacer I showed in my previous post. The Wilson gauge just tells you if a resized case fits within the SAAMI spec limits for a new case. Actual new cases are made very near minimum length from head to shoulder datum so they feed easily in minimum chambers. The Wilson will look only at the case, and will only serve as a check that it is within SAAMI new case limits. It will not help you with neck-sized cases. It is, however, a good quick check for cases intended to feed from a magazine. You can get the same information using a caliper and the LNL gauge case comparator inserts, though you will need to get a .308 headspace GO gauge to calibrate the chamfer in the insert against if you want an exact number. New cases are typically about 0.001”-0.002" shorter than the GO gauge.

As to your earlier question about the neck-sized case vs the range foundling: My point was that when the case is FL resized its shoulder is pushed further back from the case mouth, so you should increase seating depth by the difference in shoulder push-back from what your neck-sized and fireformed cases have if you want to get the same ogive distance off the lands with the fully resized case. Once the case has been fireformed in your chamber and you start neck sizing it, you then treat it the same as the other neck-sized cases.

Below is an extremely exaggerated illustration of this. The two cartridges shown have their cases trimmed to the same length, but the upper one is a fireformed and neck-sized case, while the lower one has had its shoulder pushed back by a FL sizing die. The bullets are seated to the same COL. Below that the same two cartridges are show in chambers. Because they headspace on the shoulder, you can see how that puts the FL cartridge's bullet deeper into the throat, even though trim length and COL and ogive distance from the head were the same.



If you normally shoot with the ogive at least several hundredths off the lands, the above may make no difference, as shoulder setback is only likely to be four or five thousandths difference at most. But if you are one of the folks who seats to touch the lands or tries to keep the ogive five thousandths off the lands, then it can be the difference between touching the throat and not touching the throat. I thought it would be good just to be aware this happens when tweaking loads.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg chamber fit.jpg (40.5 KB, 247 views)
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old January 2, 2012, 02:56 PM   #45
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by browninghunter86
people who use rl-15 over varget...is that what your rifle likes or is it preference or what? Just curious
Simply, my local dealer stocked more Alliant powder than Hodgdon powder, so Alliant powder is what I used. However, I've found that the Army uses RL 15 in their long-range .308 ammo, and that settled it for me. In our rifles, I've found that 43.0 grains of RL15 duplicates the Federal GMM load with a 168 Matchking. It's a simple task to switch over to a 165/168 hunting bullet when the season rolls around.

I'm sure Varget is great powder. Lots of folks seem to like it.

I also use a lot of IMR4895, but that's subject to change when the next 8 lb jug runs out. I've been thinking of making the switch to H4895 as it seems that all the surplus 4895 has dried up.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 03:18 PM   #46
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
Unclenick
So to measure the fireformed brass to get the headspace to use when FL sizing then I could get the Hornady Lok N Load headspace guage bushing and body(instead of the LE Wilson) and use it on fired brass from my rifle to get the measurement then set my FL sizing die to bump the shoulder down. Correct? That would allow me to reload any brass fro my rifle the same way. And to check COL to make sure it is not 2.015"MAX(if so use my case trimmer)just use my caliper to measure base of case to top to get my measurement.
**great illustrations**

Not sure if I am ready to mess with COAL to get closer to lands just yet(I do not want to make a mistake that I will regret) may just stick with 2.744" which shot well last loads. Until I can save up to get the Hornady Lok N load tool and the bullet comparator to go with it to measure to ogive on loaded rds

thanks for the help

Last edited by browninghunter86; January 2, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 12:54 PM   #47
larzb93
Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2011
Location: North Western PA
Posts: 53
i run a 150 grain sierra game king with 46 grains of 748 Winchester ball powder. so far they have grouped very nice for me.
larzb93 is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 04:25 PM   #48
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
Updated pics of my reloading bench.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG0209.jpg (242.6 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0208.jpg (237.8 KB, 23 views)
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 6, 2012, 10:51 AM   #49
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
anyone know what velocity range is listed for 165SST for proper expansion? Someone told me it is in the manual but I do not have one

Also what test gun/case/primer was used on that bullet as well? I have a picture from the manual of the powder and charges/FPS and OAL but not the other stuff
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old January 6, 2012, 12:12 PM   #50
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,747
Call Hornady and check. but I had some email back and forth with a South African hunter who found a significant difference between the 150 and 165, even though Hornady said their shouldn't be. He was loading down the 150 to 165 velocities and lower, but it was coming apart more easily. So I don't know how good or consistent the information is?
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09437 seconds with 9 queries