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Old September 3, 2011, 06:50 PM   #26
hulley
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Here is the Speer GD JHP 124gr +p

Here is the round I made.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:03 PM   #27
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Measuring on a screen is actually quite simple; many dimensions in the photo are known and if you know one dimension you can determine the others. Most likely tho it's a practiced reloader's eye. Once you're familiar with a given round and bullet you know when something's not right.
With all the available bullet profiles the OAL length will vary a fair bit. A TC design will usually produce a shorter OAL than a RN design.
Berry's makes a fine bullet, stick with it and you'l figure this thing out.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:12 PM   #28
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Different bullets have different nose shapes. A length that works with one bullet may not work with another. A length that works in one gun may not work in another.

You might well find, if you measured at the bullet ogive (the part that's a full .355 diameter), that your round is longer than the GD at that point. That is the point that contacts the rifling.

As others have said, you should bump the bullet back into the case a couple thousandth at a time until it fits your barrel correctly. After that measurement is determined, you can start at minimum charge and work up.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:27 PM   #29
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Mal H, how can you measure on a screen?
What I did was measure the case on the screen which was 56mm on my screen. Knowing that the nominal 9mm case is .75", then each mm on the screen represents 0.75 / 56 or .0134". The measured OAL of the round on the left was 86mm so multiplying 86 X .0134 = 1.15".

I believe your measurements (assuming you zeroed the caliper), so I was off in my measurement by about 2mm somewhere or it was more likely a combination of errors.

A tip on using calipers when measuring OAL - you should use the flat portion of the blades, not the knife edge portion. In that way you can be assured that the cartridge is being measured flat to flat, and isn't skewed one way or the other.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:52 PM   #30
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many bullets of same weight take way different oals, Never assume 1 bullets oal is the same as the next. I use several Berry's bullets and have no problems with them,they are a plinking/range shooting type bullet,not really meant for SD or hunting so expantion isn't a big concern for the intended use.

Last edited by dunerjeff; September 3, 2011 at 08:06 PM.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:57 PM   #31
hulley
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Mal H, very cool. I didnt think of that. I'm usually very good with numbers/math.
Anywho, I just did a batch of 10, starting from scratch. Now that I know alittle more of whats going on, I used my head a little and did a little playing around. End result, I made 10 rounds at OAL 1.09 and they all easily fit/fall using the case gauge. I'm pretty happy so far.
1. I started with the de-primer/sizing die, pressed it until the case slipped in/out of the gauge.
2. skipped charge/bell die, actually I did use this die to get a decent bell.
3. unscrewed the seat adjuster, rescrewd in the die until I found the right depth that allowed the brass to slip in/out of the gauge. Then screw in adjuster to find OAL.
4. Unscrewed crimp die adjuster and adjusted until I found the right depth that still allowed easy slip in/out of gauge.

Made 10 rounds and check each for powder charge, OAL and gauge fit. All 10 passed.

I know it may sound like the obvious to many but the second time around I actually knew (I think) what I was looking for rather then following general directions.
Thanks for all your help!

Sincerely
Steve
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Old September 3, 2011, 09:04 PM   #32
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I tried some speer GDJHP and they fell in and out with ease. the Speer has a longer OAL then my rounds. Speer is 1.12 OAL.
Of course the round nose bullet is longer than a flat nose of the same weight. More weight is distributed forward. The abrupt shoulder on the flatnose is what's hitting the rifling before it's fully chambered, since that represents the full diameter of the bullet.

Considering that the extracter keeps the bullet from going all the way forward, you know that the OAL is much too long if it's engaging the rifling anyway.

Without respect to the 31 replies to your thread (some of which offer good advice), Proper resizing, seating the bullets deep enough AND restoring the case mouth to proper dimension will allow the round to chamber and your ammo will be within spec.

Last edited by Nnobby45; September 3, 2011 at 09:16 PM.
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Old September 3, 2011, 09:17 PM   #33
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Don't throw away the Berry's, those are good bullets, but are not designed as sefl defense bullets, more of target bullets with flair. Berrys' IS coming out with a new SD bullet of a serious design, not QUITE ready for sale yet.
But if you decide to throw them away, throw 'em my way - I'll take 'em off your hands. I like Berrys bullets.
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Old September 3, 2011, 09:32 PM   #34
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you know that the OAL is much too long if it's engaging the rifling anyway.
Not always true.

Bullets can be loaded to JUST TOUCH / slightly engage the lands. That is how I load ALL of my semiauto pistol rounds. I shoot 100% lead, though...so can't speak from experience loading plated bullets just touching the lands.

I am sure someone else will shime in on the subject.
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Old September 3, 2011, 10:38 PM   #35
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I may have misread number 3 of your previous post about removing the "powder through expanding dye", but if you took it out, read the next paragraph.

I haven't personally worked with the plated bullets, so I can't say for certain, but I think you might want to be careful about not having the case neck flair dye in there. Because the bullets are plated, you should be careful that you're not scraping or shaving off the copper plating by not expanding the case neck. I know when I load rifle bullets with a copper jacket (All mine are boat tail) I let the jacket do the work of opening up the case just enough to seat, so really there isn't much of a crimp needed.

Good luck troubleshooting! Hope you can get to stockpiling quick
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Old September 3, 2011, 10:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Berry's makes a fine bullet, stick with it and you'l figure this thing out.
I have 500 that say no they are not, and it is a waste of time trying to load them.

Quote:
I use several Berry's bullets and have no problems with them
You are lucky, are they this bullet?

Quote:
Don't throw away the Berry's, those are good bullets
Your right don't throw them away, they make great fishing sinkers, that's what I will use them for. What a waste of money and time.

Jim
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Old September 4, 2011, 12:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
Quote:
"you know that the OAL is much too long if it's engaging the rifling anyway".
Not always true.

Bullets can be loaded to JUST TOUCH / slightly engage the lands. That is how I load ALL of my semiauto pistol rounds. I shoot 100% lead, though...so can't speak from experience loading plated bullets just touching the lands.
Yes, accurate target loads can be made by having the bullet headspace on the lands as long as the slide will go into battery.

I was speaking in the context that his bullets are so long that they won't even chamber.

You only have to look at the two different bullets to see the problem. The curved shape of the Speer allows the bullet to chamber properly without hitting the lands. The Berry bullet is a different shape. Where the Berry bullet engages the rifling with the full diameter of the bullet, the Speer has, at that same point, begun it's curve (and is smaller diameter) and wouldn't engage the rifling until it reaches the bullet before the curve has begun.

MOST truncated cone bullets, like the Berry, were designed to seat the bullet closer to the point where the bullet angle starts.

Once again. Just seat the bullets progressively deeper until they drop into the barrel below flush. If they're flush, the bullet is headspacing on the lands.

Last edited by Nnobby45; September 4, 2011 at 12:10 AM.
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Old September 4, 2011, 01:01 AM   #38
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Your pics tell the story.
That long straight bullet sidewall you're seeing above the case mouth is likely engaging the cone or rifling.
Typically, in 9mm that bullet is loaded to 1.05-ish+/-.

Conical nose bullets tend to need shorter OALs than bullets with a traditional ogive. Each different bullet in each different pistol chamber has a different maximum usable oal.

(In a 9mm CZ, that max. usable oal would be 1.04xx-ish. - my Sig will allow a little more oal, but I load for the tightest pistol so all can use them)

Do a drop-in dummy load test and find the oal that touches the rifling, then back off .015" to allow for press and reloader handle pull variations along with a little headspace. It'll be shorter than your current oal.

Pistol bullets fed and contacting the rifling can lead to big pressure spikes. ....If you get bored sometime, put a feeler gage in front of your slide and see how far out from being fully in battery/seated that your hammer will still drop.

Last edited by 1SOW; September 4, 2011 at 01:16 AM.
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Old September 4, 2011, 02:35 AM   #39
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Your pics tell the story.
That long straight bullet sidewall you're seeing above the case mouth is likely engaging the cone or rifling.
Typically, in 9mm that bullet is loaded to 1.05-ish+/-.

Conical nose bullets tend to need shorter OALs than bullets with a traditional ogive. Each different bullet in each different pistol chamber has a different maximum usable oal.
Good assessment. Why didn't I think of that?
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Old September 4, 2011, 06:37 AM   #40
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Lots of great info here! To make sure I understand what determines OAL. I'm at 1.090 now with the current batch. I know they slip in/out of the case gauge but the case gauge is not the final determination, correct? The barrels that I use should be the final gauge to determine where the rifling starts. If they fall in/out easily in my barrels then is it safe to say thats a good OAL?
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Old September 4, 2011, 07:36 AM   #41
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Hulley,

Calipers are great.....BUT to be honest I don't use calipers to measure COL for Semiauto pistol. Your barrel is all you really need. Once you find the seating depth where it FULLY chambers and slides in and out easily, you should be good to go. THEN throw a caliper on it to make sure you have not seated it under spec.
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Old September 4, 2011, 08:05 AM   #42
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Hully:

Your round in the caliper looks like the crimp is a bit excessive. Can't tell for sure without it in my hands, but that was my first impression.. Just saying..
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Old September 4, 2011, 08:19 AM   #43
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OAL too short 1.14-1.145 is what I like and runs in every gun I ever tried
Crimp way too much (a little is enough) u want just enough to bend the brass
back and see a tiny mark on the edge
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Old September 4, 2011, 08:58 AM   #44
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"OAL too short 1.14-1.145 is what I like and runs in every gun I ever tried" -excelerater

Yes, with another bullet profile. OP's using a truncated cone design and the OAL will need to be much shorter. Spot-on on the crimp but I think he's got that figured out now.
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Old September 4, 2011, 10:14 AM   #45
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I know there are fans AND detractors of it, but when I first started reloading 45acp's I couldn't get a full clip to feed and eject properly until I got the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I swear by it now after years of dependable ammunition.
All my 45, 9 and 40 reloads now get this as a final step.
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Old September 4, 2011, 11:11 AM   #46
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re: Berry's plated bullets
Quote:
I have 500 that say no they are not, and it is a waste of time trying to load them.
Love ya Jim243, but you are full o crap on this one. Users on this forum and elsewhere and the success of Berry's will also prove that maybe you struggle with them while most everyone else does really well with these bullets.

If you want to talk numbers, I'll trump your 500. Your 500 (that you never even finished) is minuscule.
My records indicate 21,750 Berry's bullets since August of 2007 when I first tried their 158gr Plated .38 Special Flat Point.

I load them with TOTAL success in:
--light loads in .32 H&R Mag and .327 Federal (two different revolvers)
--.380 Auto, from 5 different semi-auto pistols
--.38 Special, in five different revolvers and one Coonan pistol
--9mm, in two different bullet styles from three different pistols and one K-T carbine
--.40 S&W in one Glock 23
--.45, two different styles in three different pistols, two of them 1911's
And their real gem, the 110 grain .30 Carbine bullet, scorching out of my 7.5" Blackhawk.

Fantastic product that easily outclasses either Ranier or Frontier and are cheaper than most alternatives when you don't wish to or cannot shoot cast lead slugs.

Their service is second to NOBODY in this industry. They are courteous, lighting fast and they never fail to deliver. Their plastic ammo boxes are also the best I have found in the industry. This is a terrific American company that makes their customers return. Their service is the standard by which I've come to judge everyone else from which I buy.

It seems obvious that you had trouble with them, but it's a heckuva lot more obvious to me and many others that the Berry's bullets likely aren't the problem.

Not good form to frag a highly respected product in this forum simply because you couldn't figure out how to make them run.
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Old September 4, 2011, 11:11 AM   #47
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hulley,
It's the bullet, I had the same problem and had to go down to a **** C.O.L. I won't tell you what I had to go down to to get the bullet to fit my gun as the C.O.L. I used is not published. Berry's makes a good bullet but the 124 grain HP just didn't fit my gun. The Berry's HP are not real HP's but some think they are more accurate. I just went back to a 115 grain round nosed bullet and moved on. Maybe Jay at Berry's will come on and have some more advice about this bullet. If you do Jay, I can tell you that the 124 grain HP's that I have when compared to the bullet you modeled this after are nowhere near alike. (The ogives are way different) anyway as I said this Berry's 124 grain bullet did not fit my pistol (Walther PPS) but I still use their bullet in my 9MM, S&W 40, and 38 special.

OOPS, Sorry Jay, I just went and checked my bullets and the comparison bullet I was using to your 124 grain HP is a 115 grain HP bullet not a 124 grain bullet like yours. So, my statement about the two bullets ogive being way different is not an accurate statement.

Mike

Last edited by engineermike; September 4, 2011 at 11:39 AM.
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Old September 4, 2011, 11:12 AM   #48
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Yes, with another bullet profile. OP's using a truncated cone design and the OAL will need to be much shorter. Spot-on on the crimp but I think he's got that figured out now.
I will second this for sure -- way too much crimp and the COAL needs to be much shorter. Look at the sharp should of the bullet. That needs to be much lower to feed and run properly.
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Old September 4, 2011, 02:47 PM   #49
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"Fantastic product (Berry's) that easily outclasses either Ranier or Frontier and are cheaper than most alternatives when you don't wish to or cannot shoot cast lead slugs." -Sevens

That's been my (limited) experience as well, found a box in my cabinet and was very pleased with them. If I didn't cast most all my own pistol boolits I'd have a cabinet full of them. Sometimes a bullet just doesn't work for a given application, tho. I'm guessing Jim243 ran into that on his first try.
Berry's guy Jay also hangs out here for feedback and to offer tech advice, other manufacturers lurk here but he steps up and helps out. Gotta like that!

Hang in there OP! My early reloads were pretty awful, RCBS bullet puller got lots of hard use back then. No 'net or digital cameras in those days but I got through it OK!
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Last edited by TXGunNut; September 4, 2011 at 06:56 PM.
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Old September 4, 2011, 04:30 PM   #50
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I agree with TX. Don't give up on reloading just yet! My first loading experience with 223 rem was one of the biggest hassels i've ever had to deal with. I used my bullet puller so much, that I actually had to buy a second one!

I primed 300 of them with the wrong primers (I didn't see the label on the 6 1/2 that said superficially not for 223 Rem)
I then didn't properly headspace another additional 300 after I fixed the primer, so when I went to shoot, none of the rounds would chamber. It was very very frustrating. Not only that, but I was also trying to work out a good method for sizing my cases and hadn't found a good lubricant yet. I had a case get stuck every 20 rounds or so (to make matters worse, I didn't have a stuck case removal tool, I wont' tell you how I got them out ).

The road is rough at the start but the rewards are sweet!
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