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Old January 2, 2017, 02:19 PM   #101
Metal god
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I can't believe this thread is still open but I'll post this pic of what my cases look like before annealing to stay on topic lol


How ever I'll join the totally off topic part of it

Quote:
I believe this is true, but have not tried to measure it.
It's 100% true . Back before I started using competition shell holders . I would use shims under the case head in the shell holder to fine tune my case sizing .



This worked great when cases sprang back a tad more then you wanted . At times I would need just a tad more to be sized so I'd apply thicker amount of sizing wax to the case and run it through again . Through trial and error I was able to judge the amount needed to get .0005 more bump and not get any case dents .

Then when I started using the competition shell holders I was still using the wax lubes . The comp shell holders size in .002 increments and I found that those increments fell in between my desired case head space lengths I was trying to size my cases to . Knowing how I used to manipulate the sizing process with lube before I thought I'd try it again with the comp shell holders . The interesting finding for me was rather then adding more wax lube ( which is hard to do consistently ) . I found changing lube all together was better . I went to Hornady's one shot and all my cases sized to a different size ( bigger ) by .0005 to .001 . which put me right were I wanted to be all along . My conclusion was that the oneshot when applied has a much thinner coating on the case allowing the case to be sized a tad longer at the same die setting .

So yes IMO lubes , which ones and how much used has an effect on your sized cases length ( datum to head ) .
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Old January 2, 2017, 03:07 PM   #102
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MetalGod:

Thank you, I have gone to the Hornady one shot (hated it when the stopped making in the hand spray)

I will have to paly with the holder and see how that works.

Comp dies, comp seaters, com press, comp brass, comp primers make em all the same I say! (grin)
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Old January 2, 2017, 03:58 PM   #103
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RC20 :

My last post was to show how I found that lubes effect case sizing and in no way was to recommend any of the ways I explained . Most of that took way to much time to size cases and made it so you had to measure every single case after sizing . It took for ever to size cases with shims and extra lube . I was on this every case had to be exactly the same kick and IMHO it's totally not worth the time and effort .

I then went to the comp shell holders ( one of my most important tools ) and now I can consistently size cases with no extra effort involved . I no longer use the wax or oneshot but instead use a home brew of lanolin and alcohol mostly do to cost . I can easily do 20x more cases with the home brew . I also just excepted that I was not going to get the exact measurement I was trying for . Instead of having a case head space of 1.619 I get 1.618 to 1.6185 . Not a big deal really , It was just taking up to much of my time trying to get that last .0005 accuracy .

So keep that in mind when you read that above post . It was only to show JH is correct . Case lube does effect case size if you have hard contact with shell holder .
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Last edited by Metal god; January 2, 2017 at 11:12 PM.
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:02 PM   #104
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F. Guffey and anyone
Else I confused,
I anneal the brass
Make it soft with heat, so when I
Size it in my full length die,
I move the shoulder
To 1.623/25 from approx
1.635. For the once fired
Military brass that prior
To annealing I could not
Move.
I still am amazed
At how it would spring back.

Everyone here has annealed brass
Many times I'm sure.
Its more of an art and learned
Process then pure scientific approach
So the process is a little different
For everyone.

I like using my 1/2 chuck drill
I think the metal acts as a heat
Sink to keep the bottom of
The cartridge cooler.
I also drop them on a wet
Towel from the drill. (As someone suggested)
It Cools them faster without
Dumping them in water.
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Old January 2, 2017, 10:17 PM   #105
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Metal god

I see you put the tempilaq
Inside the neck.
I haven't used tempilaq yet
But , from the videos I've
Watched they paint the
Outside to indicate
The temperature point.

Only one dash of 750
Is needed to indicate
That temp is reached,
Down to that point
On the case ?
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Old January 2, 2017, 11:04 PM   #106
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I don't want to get into this in this thread . To many chiefs in here but I will say this . The temperature most say you want to reach is 700 to 750 degrees at the neck and shoulder area . That means you don't want it that hot below the shoulder . The other thing to consider/understand is you can't apply the flame directly to the tempilaq because the flame is much hotter and would immediately melt the tempilaq .

With out getting into it with the chiefs in this tribe lets assume the above is accurate for now . How do you apply the 750* temp indicator on the outside of the case in the exact area it needs to be and still keep it out of the flame of the torch ? You must put it on the inside of the case

The other option is to put a lesser degree temp indicator below the shoulder low enough to also stay out of the flame . That temperature is 450* to 475* . I got that number from research and finding this from Hornady
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/...structions.pdf

The reason I used both temp indicators like you see in the picture was to test if the two different temp indicators would in fact melt at the same time . It took very little effort to find just the right flame size/heat from torch and spin/RPM's to get both temp indicators to melt at the same time .

As you can see in this picture the 450* below the shoulder had just started to melt just as the picture was taken . The thing about this picture is that I was actually only looking at the 750* temp indicator inside the neck and took the picture when it started to melt . I just got lucky and caught the 450* below the shoulder meting in the same picture .


I've done enough testing of this method that I'm confident that the 450* below the shouldler works just fine . The other reason I don't use the 750* inside the necks is it's pretty hard to remove completely from the case . Having that residue still in the neck would not help because I'm looking for consistent bullet hold and concentricity . So cleaning it out of the inside of the necks is very important for my purposes and it takes more effort to do so then I'm willing to put out .

Hmm well you sucked me into to your thread , I was really trying to stay out of the annealing part of it

Oh well do with that what you want , I don't have anything to add .
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Last edited by Metal god; January 3, 2017 at 12:07 PM.
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Old January 3, 2017, 02:13 AM   #107
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When bending bench rifle cases, I used a feeler gauge & lube thickness to sneak up on precise case size (Datum line to head).

An old reloader used an old deep well socket on top the sizing die, smacked the socket with a mallet.
Didn't seem to 'Scientific' but it would get you a little with the ram at the top.
I couldn't quite figure out how much to smack the die/socket...
I also wasn't crazy about shock loading a cast iron press under load.

I also use temp indicator on the inside of the neck, simply because it's VERY hard to tell what's going on at the shoulder.
Assuming you aren't heating at the Datum line or lower, and not directly at the neck since it's thinnest and will heat fastest,
The neck *Should* give you a fairly acurate reading.

The stripe below the shoulder is pretty standard, and after you get the hang of it probably isn't needed on every case.

I have to assume MG is spinning the case since heating one side only isn't going to give good results.
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Old January 3, 2017, 02:49 AM   #108
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Quote:
I have to assume MG is spinning the case since heating one side only isn't going to give good results.
Yes .,

Quote:
The stripe below the shoulder is pretty standard, and after you get the hang of it probably isn't needed on every case
Correct , the pic of all the cases marked was showing all my cases I was testing . I don't mark every case when I'm actually annealing . Just the first 5 or so then one every 20 or so . I have a repeatable socket placement area and use a metronome to get my timing down . Who knew being a musician would help reloading
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Last edited by Metal god; January 3, 2017 at 03:00 AM.
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Old January 3, 2017, 10:22 AM   #109
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Actually, I would...
MENSA covered this a couple years ago (endlessly, like everything MENSA discusses...)
Musicians, especially if they can read sheet music are better computer programmers, better at complex process planning and better at complex assembly/testing.

Apparently the musician brain has developed crossovers beteen hemispheres specific to complicated/sequential planning, connecting the 'Creative' side to the
'Mechanical' side.

All that, and I can't play the radio...
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Old January 3, 2017, 12:52 PM   #110
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JeepHammer:
Quote:
Actually, I would...
MENSA covered this a couple years ago (endlessly, like everything MENSA discusses...)
Musicians, especially if they can read sheet music are better computer programmers, better at complex process planning and better at complex assembly/testing.

Apparently the musician brain has developed crossovers beteen hemispheres specific to complicated/sequential planning, connecting the 'Creative' side to the
'Mechanical' side.

All that, and I can't play the radio...
Second grade, St. Martha's Elementary. Never could read sheet music then and still can't. I guess over a 40 year career of EE I should be glad I survived those final years where I was finally forced into writing some programming languages. Interesting also that my brother with his masters in the arts can read, write and play music, as can two sisters but none of them can grasp a programming language. While never proficient at programming I did OK or good enough but could never read, write or play music. Beats the heck out of me?

Ron
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Old January 3, 2017, 01:00 PM   #111
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Quote:
F. Guffey and anyone
Else I confused,
I anneal the brass
Make it soft with heat, so when I
Size it in my full length die,
I move the shoulder
To 1.623/25 from approx
1.635. For the once fired
Military brass that prior
To annealing I could not
Move.
I still am amazed
At how it would spring back.

Everyone here has annealed brass
Many times I'm sure.
Its more of an art and learned
Process then pure scientific approach
So the process is a little different
For everyone.

I like using my 1/2 chuck drill
I think the metal acts as a heat
Sink to keep the bottom of
The cartridge cooler.
I also drop them on a wet
Towel from the drill. (As someone suggested)
It Cools them faster without
Dumping them in water.
Thanks, I am not confused, it is not 'I' that certifies the choir, I will wait and allow the choir to read through your response to determine what they think. I think you are using the deep well socket to prevent burning your hand and if it was a heat sink it does little to nothing when absorbing heat. I believe there is a better answer but I do not believe it is going to come from the choir.

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Old January 3, 2017, 01:32 PM   #112
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Quote:
Thanks, I am not confused, it is not 'I' that certifies the choir, I will wait and allow the choir to read through your response to determine what they think. I think you are using the deep well socket to prevent burning your hand and if it was a heat sink it does little to nothing when absorbing heat. I believe there is a better answer but I do not believe it is going to come from the choir.

F. Guffey
The Choir? Reloaders in general? Speak for yourself Guffy, this is same stupid crap which has caused you problems with other forums. To put it lightly your people skills suck and please do not include me in your "reloaders" or "choir" groups, your stuff gets old and tired real quick so speak for yourself. At least learn that because you are one sorry S.....

Ron
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Old January 3, 2017, 01:56 PM   #113
JeepHammer
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I do great with mechanical drawings, wiring schmatics, etc.
Tech manuals make perfect sense to me, I can't get through a novel or book.

Can't make heads or tails of sheet music & I'm as musically inclined as a rock.
Makes about as musical as a cat in a blender, even the dog bails when I sing in the shower...
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Old January 3, 2017, 02:16 PM   #114
Metal god
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I love music . I have two signs on my gun room door . One is your typical gun type sign the other says "with out music life would be a mistake"

My grandson just turned 2 and is already playing the drums . He got a real drum set from santa this year and the coolest thing happened . We had 4 generations of men all playing music together Christmas day . My dad was on guitar . me on bass and my son and grandson on drums . Very cool life/family moment .
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Old January 3, 2017, 04:09 PM   #115
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Quote:
I love music . I have two signs on my gun room door . One is your typical gun type sign the other says "with out music life would be a mistake"
I also love and enjoy music, unlike my siblings I just could never seem to master reading it or making it. I guess some of us are just destined to enjoy it from a distance.

Ron
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Old January 4, 2017, 11:17 AM   #116
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I am a master of rythmic flatus.
The sheets for my music come on rolls.
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........................................................

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Old January 4, 2017, 11:38 AM   #117
F. Guffey
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Quote:
The Choir? Reloaders in general? Speak for yourself Guffy, this is same stupid crap which has caused you problems with other forums. To put it lightly your people skills suck and please do not include me in your "reloaders" or "choir" groups, your stuff gets old and tired real quick so speak for yourself. At least learn that because you are one sorry S.....
Bytesniffer is on a fast track to be right up there with the choir in a few days, I believe someone on this forum should critique his last response and I believe he should refrain from leading the forum to believe he developed a method and or technique for determining the distance from the lands to the bolt face. When I started reloaders were turning cases into something that looked like a squid by shredding the case neck and then there was that stick thing. Stick a stick into the barrel until the stick contacts the bolt face and then mark the stick, After marking the stick place a bullet into the rifling and then stick the stick into the barrel and stop pushing when the stick contact the bullet; and then mark the stick again.

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Old January 4, 2017, 11:49 AM   #118
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And again I ask how many times does a reloader have to paint the cases when annealing to know what the case looks like when annealed. Is it necessary to start over everyday?

And then there are those that are skilled at searching. I remember a member of the choir blew a gasket when he claimed he developed a method and or technique and a phrase, words or a group of words. It became one of those 'and then' moments. And then a member of the forum said he searched and searched and found nothing before that supported his claim and then the forum member furnished his findings.

I had already put the member in the reloaders 'claims' department.

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Old January 4, 2017, 11:54 AM   #119
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Guffy, people have tried. If you believe what you posted then have at it. Just please stop lumping all reloaders together. The hand loading or reloading membership comes in at all levels, they are not all the same. The new enthusiast come in with questions and many have the same questions many of us wondered about and asked 40 years ago. Reloading has a learning curve and for many understanding what is involved takes time and for the advanced there is always more to learn and discover. Point being you can't just make statements like "Reloaders have yet to learn" or similar and just lump everyone who rolls their own into a single group.

Thank You
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Old January 4, 2017, 12:56 PM   #120
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Quote:
Today 12:54 PM
Reloadron Guffy, people have tried. If you believe what you posted then have at it. Just please stop lumping all reloaders together. The hand loading or reloading membership comes in at all levels, they are not all the same. The new enthusiast come in with questions and many have the same questions many of us wondered about and asked 40 years ago. Reloading has a learning curve and for many understanding what is involved takes time and for the advanced there is always more to learn and discover. Point being you can't just make statements like "Reloaders have yet to learn" or similar and just lump everyone who rolls their own into a single group.
I have to wonder if you are on the verge if blowing a gasket. And then there is you potty mouth. I have been involved in guns and reloading for years, during those years I have practiced the "I do not provoke" philosophy. I have one big concern, all of the trash that is aired on the Internet can be held against someone that choose to use a firearm. I mentions this because in my opinion you are too easy to provoke and in my opinion you are an Internet bully.

I said I have Alabama LEG DOG experience straight from ALABAMA.

F. Guffey

I do not agree with the painting of the case, I do not believe reloaders are slow learners, I believe after they paint a case and heat it a few time they can catch on. Talk about the same old thing, there are those cases painted inside and out, and I remind you about the black smith that heated the shoes and threw them into the sand to cool. A man walked over and picked one up and then immediately dropped it. The smith said to the curious one: "HOT! Aint it" and the curious one replied: "NO, it just dont's take me to look at it".

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Old January 4, 2017, 01:05 PM   #121
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As we have wandered off topic and into everything from programming to personal disagreements on communication style, I think this thread has run its course.
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