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Old March 22, 2011, 07:26 PM   #1
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Wanting to make a hybrid load?

This my buddy's set up.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441563

The cylinder seems to be the weak link in the system. The prssure limit for the cowboy loads is 14,000 CUP. He has a starting load from the Ruger, Colt, and Freedom Arms data that uses 20.0 grs of IMR 4227 and produces 20,000 CUP with a 240 gr Sie JHC. Would it be possible to make a safe reduced load using this powder? Maybe we are missing some thing but, the cowboy loads have so much space between the end of the bullet and the powder level. I know you can use different case fillers but, my buddy doesn't really want to if he has other options. Any help would be appreciated as we want to remain safe.
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Old March 23, 2011, 12:28 AM   #2
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Would it be possible to make a safe reduced load using this powder? Maybe we are missing some thing but, the cowboy loads have so much space between the end of the bullet and the powder level. I know you can use different case fillers but, my buddy doesn't really want to if he has other options.
Have you considered Trail Boss?
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Old March 23, 2011, 12:38 AM   #3
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Well, yeah you can safely download the starting recipe for the 4227 powder, probably. But I don't think you'll like the results at all. It's not as sensitive as some other powders but if you go very far below the starting charge you will start to see a lot of unburnt powder granules and some sooty cases. I have tried it a few times with the slower burning powders and they all have their minimum pressures to burn efficiently. There are better choices out there.
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Old March 23, 2011, 12:42 AM   #4
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I like Red Dot powder for light loads (actually I use Promo, but it's just a cheap version of Red Dot.) Red Dot is a very fast-burning powder, and it's kind of bulky so it takes up a lot of room in the case. It gives very good accuracy, even if you have trouble keeping the powder charge to ±0.1 grain.

Why are you using jacketed bullets? .45 Colt was *made* for cast lead bullets.
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Old March 23, 2011, 08:44 PM   #5
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Doodlebugger, I have the same concern regarding the use of a slow burning powder that is too far below the minimum starting load. Powders of that type fill the case and like a nice crimp.

zxcvbob, The suggestion to try Red Dot is what I think he's looking for. He would like a low pressure powder that would fill the case. The jacketed bullet would be for deer hunting. He has tried Desperado Cowboy Bullets 0.452 diameter in both the 170 and 200 gr with good result from the 170 grainers. He loaded the cases with good old Triple 7 and got about 1100 ft/sec velocity but, he could do better than that with more powder using the cap and ball set up.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old March 23, 2011, 08:51 PM   #6
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red dot will not fill the case.
as Frankenmauser said Trail boss is the powder designed to keep pressure low and big old black powder cases full.
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Old March 23, 2011, 09:36 PM   #7
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Red Dot will not fill the case, but it will fill it enough that you know it's in there and can tell if the powder level is about right (compared to the other rounds next to it in the loading block.) It also works very well with light loads.

If he wants to actually fill the case, use black powder
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Old March 23, 2011, 10:07 PM   #8
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A friend here tried downloading 4227 in .357 Magnum. It did not work at all well. Neither did another guy's attempt to load for CAS with 2400 in .44 Magnum.

Look in your and your buddy's manuals and pick a powder that gives the velocity you want at a starting load of 90% of the maximum, or maybe a 95% middle of the pack load.

Do not put crap other than gunpowder in your ammunition.
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Old March 23, 2011, 11:29 PM   #9
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From what I've heard/read no modern smokeless powder using the correct (or even ruger/FA) data will fill a 45LC case. It was designed for black powder.
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Old March 24, 2011, 12:23 AM   #10
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From what I've heard/read no modern smokeless powder using the correct (or even ruger/FA) data will fill a 45LC case. It was designed for black powder.
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
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Old March 24, 2011, 12:41 AM   #11
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Cowboys did not use 240g JHC, they used cast round nose or flat point bullets. Find the right bullet and load.
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Old March 24, 2011, 02:48 AM   #12
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I didn't even think trail boss would fill the case to be honest, of course it would be a lot closer than anything else though. Never using it I don't know, just what Ive heard. So all of what I said could be completely false.
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Old March 24, 2011, 04:08 AM   #13
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b momey Trail Boss gives great case fill in fact that is how you determine the load you will use.

Make a dummy round with a bullet seated at the depth you will use.
Take draw a line at the base of the bullet.
Tranfer the line to a prepped case.
Fill to the line with Trail Boss and weigh the charge.
This is max load.
Reduce by 30 percent for your start load.

Directons acording to Hodgdon. You can down load the directions from thier website for free.
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Old March 24, 2011, 08:29 AM   #14
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FrankenMauser

I'm confused..............are you trying to say that he should try some Trail Boss????
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Old March 24, 2011, 12:27 PM   #15
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Really, thats interesting. I might have to try some now
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Old March 24, 2011, 02:34 PM   #16
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Aye.


In nearly every cartridge, Trail Boss is capable of a 100% fill, without going over-pressure. (I say 'nearly', because there IS the chance. But, I have not yet come across anything that comes even remotely close.)

Hodgdon tells you to reduce by 30%, for standard reloading safety - and so you can work up to an accurate load.

Just don't compress it. Hodgdon warns against it, and I'll warn against it. Trail Boss becomes erratic, unpredictable, and changes its burn rate if you compress it. You'll understand why, the first time you see those powder "flakes".
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Old March 24, 2011, 08:57 PM   #17
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Let me rephrase the question....

What my buddy wants to do is produce a deer hunting load. Do you think that is plausable when limited to the low pressure cowboy data?

Here is what he wants to try. He purchased some 200 gr Hornaday FTX 0.452" bullets. He did a dry fit with Red Dot and Herco. The Red Dot filled the case within 0.300" from the end of the seated bullet and the Herco was closer at 0.200". Anyone know if that would be good bad or ugly with either powder? No offense to FrankenMauser but, when we looked up the pressure and velocity it became clear that we could find something that would have a bit more horse power than Trail Boss.

Maybe a full case of 777 under a 170 or 200 gr Desparado Cowboy Bullet (Brinell hardness 10) might be the hunting load but, if he can get something with a jacketed bullet and avoid getting a face full of smoke that would be good too.
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Old March 24, 2011, 10:11 PM   #18
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Did you weight either of those powder charges? A .45 Colt cartridge filled to 90% of the usable case capacity under a 200 grain jacketed bullet will give you about 35000 psi with Herco and 45000 with Red Dot!
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Old March 24, 2011, 10:20 PM   #19
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You're using a black powder gun with a conversion cylinder.

Get some 250 or 255 grain lead flat-nosed bullets (like God intended) and about 6.5 grains of Bullseye or 8 grains of Unique or 8.5 grains of Herco, and call it good. They will all give you almost 1000 fps with a bullet heavy enough to shoot thru a moose lengthwise.
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Old March 25, 2011, 01:11 AM   #20
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If it's a hunting load, I'm on the "lead bullet wagon", as well.

If you're trying to stay under 14k psi, and still hunt with the thing...

The velocity is going to be low, and performance of jacketed bullets: sub-par.

Your best bet is a position-sensitive load of a pistol powder and a lead bullet (low charge weight of Herco or Red Dot).
Or... A full charge of Trail Boss and a lead bullet. (You do lose some velocity with the heavier loads, but I would consider the BHN 10 bullets just about perfect.)

If you want a near-14k load, you'll have to use a filler.

If you want a full case, but don't have to come close to the 14k mark...
Trail Boss or Black Powder substitutes are the only real options.
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Old March 25, 2011, 03:52 PM   #21
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If he's gonna try to hunt with it and keep pressure down in the 14K range I'll 2nd or 3rd a 255 cast SWC over 8.5 gr of unique.
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Old March 27, 2011, 09:49 AM   #22
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Here is what my buddy put together. He has already tried a 200 gr. Desparado Cowboy Bullet under 25 grains of 777 and chronographed an average velocity of approximately 1050 ft/sec. The bullets used in the pictures are Hornaday 200 gr FTX. Every other component is the same. The bullets are the same 0.452" in size however, the FTX is going to seat deeper than the lead bull. As you can also see, he had to pull the flex tip out to maintain a maximum OAL of 1.600". If this combo shoots okay then he is going to try 9 or 10 grains of Herco but, he wanted to make sure changing the bullet wouldn't cause signs of an over pressure load.

Any thoughts before he caps off would be appreciated.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img578.jpg (128.0 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg img582.jpg (139.5 KB, 10 views)
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Last edited by .284; March 27, 2011 at 10:30 AM.
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Old March 28, 2011, 09:02 AM   #23
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SShhh, try this secret recipe...
CAST SEMI-WADCUTTER and TRAIL BOSS!!
Heve fun,
Gene
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Old March 28, 2011, 12:51 PM   #24
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Okay, now for some weekend results.

Well, he shot the Hornadys with the 25 grs of 777 and had some good data numbers. Clocked them at an average of 1046 ft/sec. The 50 yard group on paper was not so good. So, we tried 10 grs of Herco and had better data. The ES and SD were both lower and the average velocity was 1095 ft/sec. The 50 yard group is not the best he's ever shot but, I think with a little practice and fine tuning it'll work. After we finished testing, we sat down to a few golden foamy pops to discuss the situation. Then......whamo it hit us, instead of pulling the flex tip out of the bullet what if we just cut it off flush. I don't know if it's going to shoot better than having the gapping hollow point we created when we pull the tip but, it can't hurt.

So my friends, I present the what we have affectionately named the "Red Diablo".

Guys would you hunt deer with this thing?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 45 LC Custom.jpg (116.5 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 50 yd herco and hornady.jpg (100.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg full conversion cylinder.jpg (159.6 KB, 7 views)
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Last edited by .284; March 28, 2011 at 04:28 PM.
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