Questions 45-70

[jonnefudge]

Hi
I am moving to a 405gr bullet in my 45-70 marlin 1895 and would like some tips. I am planning on using Norma 200 powder or maybe some VV powder and can’t find any data on max load. From what I understand 43500psi is the limit for my marlin 1895, so:

1. Is the Norma 200 a good powder for this setup?

2. What’s the Norma 200 max load?

3. Any other tips is greatly appreciated

[Charlie98]

N200 is right in the same burn range as AA5744 and the 4227's, so it should be OK. Do you have any other powders available to you?

Understand, that's a relatively fast powder... you will be nowhere near max pressure or velocity. I would think velocities in the 1500-1600fps range would be appropriate, particularly with cast bullets.

[Unclenick]

Right. Maximum velocity loads require slightly slower powders, though the large expansion ratio means they don't have to be really fast. Hodgdon's highest velocity load for a 400 grain jacketed bullet is loaded with H4198. I'm pretty confident the Marlin will handle 43,500 psi, but it's a remarkably specific number, so I have to wonder, where did it come from and how was it was arrived at? Garret ammunition for the Marlin is limited to 35,000 psi. The warmest Hodgdon listings are at 40,000 psi. At the other extreme, I believe M.L. McPherson has loaded them rather warmer than your number in his experiments. This is why I am curious where it came from.

[jonnefudge]

It from Norma which divides the 45-70 loads in two categories: 28000 and 43500

Also I think I’ve seen that number somewhere else

https://www.norma.cc/sv/Ammunitionss...ent-43500-psi/

However is there any other VV or Norma powder you recommend?

[Unclenick]

I just realized you would be looking at pressures developed in the CIP type channel transducer apparatus, so it is perfectly within reason for it to be several thousand PSI different from our conformal transducer apparatus numbers.

From QuickLOAD, it looks like the powder choices on your side of the pond would be:

Nitrochemie A/S 0300
SNPE Vectan SP 10
Norma 200
Vihtavuori N120

Of those, the N120 produces around 100 fps less velocity than the others due to being faster. You are probably looking at a sort of optimum burn rate near that of N130, but it is bulky and doesn't fit in the case well. I've run into this problem with VVO powders before. The N1xx series often has more bulk than much of their competition, producing this sort of dilemma that the best burn rate doesn't fit in the case easily.

[jonnefudge]

Ok thanks Unclenick!
This a bear load by the way. I live very far north and my friends 4yo son got attacked by a bear a couple of months ago... sounds incredible but it is true! so now I really want some stiff loads to protect my kids. I don’t trust those bears...

49gr Norma 200, cci 200, 405gr hard cast should be ok?

Just a bit worried about overpressures...

[Unclenick]

The exact answer depends on the bullet seating depth, but in principle, it looks good. I used Norma's online data to adjust for a match to their Norma 200 powder with QuickLOAD's model for it using the 350 grain jacketed RN bullet to test, and assuming a 508mm (20") barrel, as is in the CIP homologation table for a standard test barrel. I am assuming that's what Norma used. I then substituted a 405 grain Lee cast bullet at 2.550" COL and the pressure prediction was 14% lower than for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, so you should have a good safety margin there. I got 1866 fps and 3131 ft-lbs (4245 J). If the barrel is 24", that increases to 1931 fps and 3355 ft-lbs (4548 J).

What is the shape of your hardcast bullet? I've been very impressed by damage photos for the flat wide meplat types. I actually bought a mold for a 434 grain bullet of that type for bear loads for a camp gun, but have yet to get time to work up loads for it.

[jonnefudge]

Ok thanks a lot!
Yes it’s a wider flat nose 405gr hard cast.

[Unclenick]

That should do well. The flat nose shape is shorter for it's weight than one with a point. This means you may be able to raise the charge a little more. You'll want to work the load up in steps from about 45 grains anyway. If you have no pressure signs by the time you reach 49 grains, you can keep going if you feel the need to, but that depends partly on the size of the bears. The black bears here are fast and powerful, but not particularly hard to kill. Not as hard as the bigger brown bears or the polar bears. I don't know what you have by way of bears, but I'm sure you already know what it takes to stop them.

[jonnefudge]

Thanks!
Well our brown bears are typically a little bit smaller then the American grizzly but still about 225kg and they have a very thick skull. The 9.3x62 is a common bear hunting cartridge in Sweden but also 30-06. However I think the marlin is perfect for this as a light fast rifle with decent power.

[jonnefudge]

What kind of pressure sign are to be expected in a 45-70 at that amount of pressure? The cratering and ejector mark in a 308 comes around 60000 so what kind of signs are expected at ~43000-45000 in a 45-70?

[T. O'Heir]

"...can't find any data on max load..." Cast or jacketed? It matters. I'm assuming jacketed based on what you think is max pressures. Use the 400 grain data on vihtavuori.com. The 5 grains difference won't matter.
Norma does not have any 400 or 405 grain data on their site(decidedly limited in data period). Usually means they think you should buy their manual. I'd be skipping Norma powders altogether if I couldn't find proper load data. QuickLoad is not proper data.
"...45-70 loads in two categories..." The 28,000 PSI is for smokeless powder Trapdoor Springfield loads. The 43,000 PSI is for "Modern" rifles like the Ruger No. 1. Max loads for the Ruger run close to 50,000 CUP. (There's no way to convert PSI to CUP or CUP to PSI mathematically. It's a one or the other thing.) Lever action Max loads run to about 40,000 CUP or a bit under. Depends on the powder. I note that Norma does not give pressures on their site. Doesn't mean their data is unsafe though. A lot of load data sites don't give pressures.
In any case, generally speaking it's not a good idea to try an max out the rifle's pressures anyway. However, your brown bears won't know or care what you use, but follow a manual religiously and you'll be fine.

[458winshooter]

Speer lists N-133 with their 400 gr jsp for both trapdoor and Marlin loads.Vihtavuori's load data lists N-120 and N-135 for that bullet as well.I recently went to their website and could only bring up the highest pressure loads,too hot for a Marlin.

Speer data trapdoor pressure:
N-133 43.0----1518 fps beginning load
47.0----1750 fps maximum
Marlin pressure:
N-133 47.0----1671 fps beginning load
51.0----1842 fps maximum
The reason for the different speeds is the fact that the Marlin data used a 22 inch barreled Marlin and the trapdoor was shot out of a 26 inch single shot.Vihtavuori lists a maximum of 51.4 gr for 1854 fps again out of a 22 inch barrel.The other two powders are a bit slower but I can forward you their info if you need it.All load info taken from a one book/one caliber load book for the 45-70.Oh,did I mention that the 45-70 is my favorite cartridge to reload?Hope I've helped,Russ.

[Unclenick]

One pressure sign that M.L. McPherson uses is seeing cases starting to stretch too much and being unable to rechamber completely. What causes it is the fact the bolt has a rear locking lug rather than front lugs like most bolt action rifles do. That means the whole body of the receiver between the nose of the bolt and the locking lug can stretch like a spring, allowing the bolt to back up and the case, which is sticking to the chamber at these pressures, to stretch the brass. I'd have to look it up, but I think he was reporting an increase of something like 0.005" additional stretch as compared to the amount of stretch he normally got.

Another pressure sign that indicates stretching is to have velocity go down as you increase the powder charge. It takes a chronograph to detect this.

Sudden substantial increase in group size with a small increase in powder charge is a possible pressure sign.

Because the steel in a lever gun barrel's chamber is thinner than, say, a Ruger #1, you may get sticky extraction as a pressure sign, same as a revolver does.

Unfortunately, to pressure sign is completely reliable, so they are more like clues that something is amis.

[458winshooter]

Speer lists N-133 with their 400 gr jsp for both trapdoor and Marlin loads.Vihtavuori's load data lists N-120 and N-135 for that bullet as well.I recently went to their website and could only bring up the highest pressure loads,too hot for a Marlin.

Speer data trapdoor pressure:
N-133 43.0----1518 fps beginning load
47.0----1750 fps maximum
Marlin pressure:
N-133 47.0----1671 fps beginning load
51.0----1842 fps maximum
The reason for the different speeds is the fact that the Marlin data used a 22 inch barreled Marlin and the trapdoor was shot out of a 26 inch single shot.Vihtavuori lists a maximum of 51.4 gr for 1854 fps again out of a 22 inch barrel.The other two powders are a bit slower but I can forward you their info if you need it.All load info taken from a one book/one caliber load book for the 45-70.Oh,did I mention that the 45-70 is my favorite cartridge to reload?Hope I've helped,Russ.

[Unclenick]

T. O'Heir,

I you read the thread you will learn he is using a wide meplat cast bullet. His data numbers were originally based on Norma data for 43,500 psi that is not on their web site (that I could find). QuickLOAD is not developed load data, but it does comparisons well. If you see what it says for a published commercial load's velocity and pressure, then make the bullet or load change, you get pretty good relative performance change predictions. So the data I gave him was based on that relative performance and not on QuickLOAD original numbers.

[kraigwy]

Food for Thought:

I always pondered the velocities of lead 45-70s.

Do they work?
Are the necessary?

I shot a BPCR Creedmoor Match (800-900 and 1000 yards) With my 1895 Browning High Wall. Not knowing what I was doing, I figured like pistols they needed to be hard cast and fast. Results were tumbling, not so accurate bullets.

I was told by expierenced BPCR shooters that the 45-70 should be shot at near orginal military loadings with soft, near pure lead. Since the guy who told me this had several BPCR National Championships under his belt, I'd give it a try.

Turned out he was right in my rifles. To keep from playing with BP (and the mess) for practice I used 4198 loaded to BP velocities, or 29 grs of 4198 with 405 soft lead bullets. (I use the Lyman 535 gr bullets in the Creedmoor matches) They work well in my Browning and My '78 45-70 trap door Springfield. What was nice, they matched the sights of my Trapdoor perfectly.

As to the second questions, is hyper velocities necessary? To help get the Indians on reservations the Army gave away tons of 45-70 rounds to civilians to help kill off the buffalo, Thousands were killed using the military loadings.

Not sure of the date, but Rifle Magazine did a test on the penitration of the 45-70 bullets and I was impressed how well the military loadings penitrate at extended ranges, Much farther they we would normally use for hunting or large animal defense, but gives us an idea how effective the old 45-70 war horse it.

{Edit: See board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

We all have our opinions on what works, and what we need. I've shot "hot" 45-70 loads and frankly, besides not being accurate, they hurt. I would think the orginal military velocities would be just effective with out the punishment, plus allowing faster recovery if a second shot is needed. A lot less punishing also for doing a lot of practice.

Take this as "for what its worth" since the only bear I have shot was with a 250 lb black with a 44 Mag revolver using standard 44 mag 240 LSWC bullets. They worked but the bear wasnt trying to eat one of my kids.

[Wendyj]

I loaded up some 405 grain I cast from range brass and a Gas check with 45 grains of 4198. Lubed with Carnuba blue. Recoil was a little rougher than I would want to set at a bench much more than to zero in. No leading sized at .459. Need to chronograph still but it's going to be my Marlin load. Got a lb of 2400 but I can't find any loads for it.

[Charlie98]

Got a lb of 2400 but I can't find any loads for it.

15grn 2400 under a 405grn boolit should get you in the neighborhood. I think the velocity is around 1300fps, but don't quote me on that.