Why is the FBI cant a good thing for a holster:

vmr357 · January 5, 2017, 12:21 PM

I saw a couple things on the internet this week. One guy touting his new holster with a "good" forward cant. The other was Rob Latham talking about the need to have a good grip on the frame before you draw. Maybe old age is getting to me and softening my body or my brain, but for me a forward cant prevents a good grip.

I have a box full of holsters: some with a cant, some straight drop, and a few cross draw. For me, a straight drop at 3 o'clock works well as does the cross draw. But I can't find a spot on my belt where I can get a grip on the pistol with a forward cant until I'm back around 5 o'clock or more. By then, I can't pull the pistol any more. Where am I going wrong? What am I missing?

Vern

T. O'Heir · January 5, 2017, 12:40 PM

It's nothing to do with the FBI, holsters were slanted long before they went to a pistol, but it supposedly gives a very slightly faster draw.
You've probably got the thing too high.

zeke · January 5, 2017, 12:46 PM

The forward cant allows me to effectively conceal a larger pistol at 3-3:30, without printing. It actually slows down the draw, and have to contort a little. It be a trade off am willing to make.

FireForged · January 5, 2017, 12:47 PM

Its all a matter of preference and how you train.

DMK · January 5, 2017, 03:55 PM

Quote:

But I can't find a spot on my belt where I can get a grip on the pistol with a forward cant until I'm back around 5 o'clock or more.

Quote:

The forward cant allows me to effectively conceal a larger pistol at 3-3:30, without printing.

It depends on where you carry and what you carry. Everyone is shaped slightly differently and may have longer or shorter arms.

I like the 4:30 to 5:00 position IWB. It conceals well and is the most comfortable position for me especially when sitting. The forward cant allows me to draw from there more easily and helps conceal a larger grip (like a 1911 Commander or my CZ PCR).

lockedcj7 · January 5, 2017, 09:02 PM

I have a short torso with really long arms and legs. I much prefer a forward cant if the holster rides high. Without it, it's tough to fold my arm enough to get a good grip since the gun is basically in my arm pit.

357 Python · January 5, 2017, 09:40 PM

The FBI cant was originally designed for revolvers. It helped conceal the gun by reducing the printing effect. It held the gun closer to the body. It allowed agents to clear the leather faster. Granted the wrist had to be bent in order to make a smooth draw but to the practiced shooter this was a small inconvenience. It also helped agents when sitting in cars for extended periods of time. Many of my holsters use the FBI cant and I have not had any problems using them.

James K · January 5, 2017, 11:54 PM

One of my favorite holsters is the old Bucheimer Federal Man, a right side, OWB thumb paddle holster with a decided forward tilt. The tilt would not be good IF the holster were worn low (i.e., "cowboy" style) but for a gun worn high for concealment under a suit coat or sports jacket, the draw is with the forearm sloped down and backward. The gun barrel is in line with and an extension of the forearm.

Jim

Nathan · January 6, 2017, 04:15 AM

It is basically a matter of draw mechanics. Your elbow only goes back so far. At 2-3, a straight cant is about right for me. Between 3-430, I need the can't to go from 5deg to 25deg, for my hand to align well and my gun to not drag during the draw.

I prefer an extreme ~25 deg FBI can't.

TailGator · January 6, 2017, 11:14 AM

For me, the forward cant causes me to bend forward at the waist just a bit into a good firing stance, too.

vmr357 · January 8, 2017, 01:01 AM

Thanks for all the replies. One thing I see from all this is that you have to work within your physical abilities. You have to match your rig to what you can do. Position of the gun and physical flexibility are very important.

In my case, maybe I had the gun a little too high for my level of flexibility. I can bring my elbow high enough that my fingertips will touch the top of my hip bone, but in that position my wrist has no flexibility at all. My arm won't go higher, so a high ride makes it hard for me to clear a holster no matter what the orientation of the holster might be.

If I have a forward tilt/cant in my holster and it's at 3 or 4 o'clock my hand hits the butt of the gun, but I can't get my palm on the back strap. If I move the gun around to 4-5 o'clock it feels good on my hip and I can get my palm on the grip, but have a very difficult time pulling the gun. Bad shoulders are the pits.

So for me, a straight drop works best and one that's not too high. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing about the forward tilt.

Thanks for all the comments.

armedleo · January 8, 2017, 01:53 AM

After learning the fundamentals of safe and proper draw and re-holster, the rest is about finding what works best for you that allows for a comfortable carry with smooth and efficient draw. After that its all about practice.

I personally never liked the FBI cant and favor 3 o'clock at 90 degrees. But there is a reason today's holsters afford adjustable angles. Find the one best for you.

HiBC · January 8, 2017, 03:51 PM

I'm mid 60's and far from lean and hard. My body shape plays into carrying.
.My belly gets in the way of 2 to 3 oclock carry,so,at this point,appendix carry is not so good.
But if the gun is vertical,as I move back to war 3 oclock and beyond,vertical,the grip protrudes like the tailfins on a 1959 Desoto..(or handles on a wheelbarrow if you don't know what a 59 Desoto looks like)

A forward tilt minimizes the protrusion of the handle.

I understand what the OP means by planting the grip per Leathan.

I agree.However,cocking the wrist downward helps the hand to hook inside of,and sweep back,the cover garment.(open jacket,shirt tail,or vest)As this occurs,the hand is cocked at near 45 deg,and the web of the hand is ideally presented to the backstrap and spur or beavertail.

At least,thats how it works for me

kilimanjaro · January 8, 2017, 07:45 PM

With the FBI Cant came the FBI hip swivel that opened the coat and gave more room for the agent to grasp his revolver and draw. A slight twist to the right, then a forward twist to the left, opening the coat and clearing the draw.

OhioGuy · January 11, 2017, 11:03 AM

I've found that a 15 degree cant carried at around 1-2 o'clock allows the grip of the weapon to follow the contour of my waist, rather than sticking off to the side and out past my belt as it does with a straight drop. This makes it print a bit less, and so long as it's not carried right in front at the 12 o'clock position doesn't make it very awkward to draw (right in front, and you have to bend your wrist in a funny angle, but closer to 1:30-2:00 it's minimal).

I find that tradeoff pretty good since it helps to conceal a little better.

Tactical Jackalope · January 12, 2017, 10:58 AM

Quote:

The forward cant allows me to effectively conceal a larger pistol at 3-3:30, without printing. It actually slows down the draw, and have to contort a little. It be a trade off am willing to make.

This. It makes concealing a lot easier as it hides the grip more.

SansSouci · January 17, 2017, 09:17 PM

The Firearms Training Division of the FBI is usually right n target; however, in my opinion, the FBI cant ain't a good idea. It almost encourages a bad guy to take a gun. And yes, bad guys do practice disarming cops.

I like Avenger type holster that have a vertical draw. Should a bad guy attempt to grab my gun, retention strategies are far more efficacious.

Maybe this might be useful: I was taught oh so many years ago that if a suspect who's under the influence of PCP were to grab my gun, he'd take it and there won't be a damned thing I'd be able to do to prevent it. Hence, the crucial importance of situational awareness and knowing when to leave a potentially bad environment.

Brit · February 4, 2017, 11:51 AM

The FBI cant, was basically for a Revolver, that funny shaped gun, with a big lump in the middle!

My Glock 19 likes to be straight up and down. When I stand naturally, my right forearm is along side my pistol. When I take my first, and final grip of the gun, it is drawn straight up, then swivels to the front, barrel is now parallel to the deck. The pistol is then punched forward, into the support hand, stops, and fires, at full extension, level with the eyes.

The recoil of the 9mm tells you where the shot went, not were it is going!

Dry fire your carry pistol, from the holster a few thousand times, the click of the firing pin releasing, leaves you with a perfect sight picture. (or should!)

Kevin Rohrer · February 4, 2017, 07:34 PM

The forward cant is good for concealing, but not so good for gripping and drawing.

I have few forward cant holsters. Most of the 70+ holsters I own are zero-cant. A few are rearward cant, which makes them very easy to grip and very fast to draw and aim.

A Davis T-Omega I had made w/ a slight rearward cant

A Davis Realist (1AT clone) w/ a slight rearward cant

A Davis Gunsite Omega that is zero-cant

Vic1951 · February 5, 2017, 01:23 AM

If you carry your gun at about 4:30 or more, it is a easier and faster draw for me. It is awkward to draw my gun in a holster with no cant. When reaching past the midline on your side, your hand naturally will cant to the front and you will be able to get a full combat grip on your gun.

To see what I mean look at a small of the back carry. It is very canted since your hand will be canted too when you grab the gun. As you move that gun more towards your side, the cant can be reduced until midline when you do not need a cant at all if that is your pleasure. When I competed, we all had a cant to our speed holsters because it did give us a faster draw. I never saw anyone who seriously competed using a holster with no cant to it. For me it is a faster draw as my hand naturally cants as I move it to my side to grip a gun.

DT Guy · February 5, 2017, 08:08 AM

I've been working my way toward more cant recently, as I've started carrying closer to 5 o'clock than 3:30, as I used to.

It certainly does allow you to conceal a larger gun more easily, since the grip moves up rather than out:

Larry

CDW4ME · February 5, 2017, 08:57 AM

Quote:

The forward cant allows me to effectively conceal a larger pistol at 3-3:30, without printing. It actually slows down the draw, and have to contort a little. It be a trade off am willing to make.

This exactly.
Only way for to to conceal a 1911 / Glock 21 size pistol to my satisfaction.

F. Guffey · February 10, 2017, 09:45 AM

Cant, pike and peavey: I remember options like 'kick out', there were a few holsters with enough kick out to make an elbow rest. The kick out holster made it difficult to look cool when walking through narrow doors and then there was the problem with paint chips.

F. Guffey

rodfac · February 10, 2017, 06:05 PM

In the position you wear your holster, you cant the rig enough so the drawing hand can EASILY establish a firing grip while the gun is still in the holster. One reason for the "FBI" ~4:00 position was that it worked well with their suit coats. For an automatic worn in that position you may need more or less cant to achieve the goal of 'a firing grip while still on the holster' requisite.

If you need to adjust your grip after or during the draw movement, then you need to move the holster location or adjust the cant to allow a firing grip while the gun is still in the holster.

For many of us, a moderate butt forward cant with an OWB holster at 3:30 to 4:00 accomplishes that provision. Rod

locnload · February 14, 2017, 08:47 PM

This is one of those subjects that we as concealed carriers can cuss and discuss until the cows come home. Our body shape, torso, arm length and mobility or flexibility all play a part in what works best for us. A good cant worked for me when I was younger and skinnier, now not so much. Ilike straight up about 3:00.

January 5, 2017, 12:21 PM	#1
vmr357 Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Utah Posts: 24	Why is the FBI cant a good thing for a holster: I saw a couple things on the internet this week. One guy touting his new holster with a "good" forward cant. The other was Rob Latham talking about the need to have a good grip on the frame before you draw. Maybe old age is getting to me and softening my body or my brain, but for me a forward cant prevents a good grip. I have a box full of holsters: some with a cant, some straight drop, and a few cross draw. For me, a straight drop at 3 o'clock works well as does the cross draw. But I can't find a spot on my belt where I can get a grip on the pistol with a forward cant until I'm back around 5 o'clock or more. By then, I can't pull the pistol any more. Where am I going wrong? What am I missing? Vern

January 5, 2017, 12:40 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	It's nothing to do with the FBI, holsters were slanted long before they went to a pistol, but it supposedly gives a very slightly faster draw. You've probably got the thing too high. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 5, 2017, 12:47 PM	#4
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	Its all a matter of preference and how you train. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

January 5, 2017, 09:02 PM	#6
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I have a short torso with really long arms and legs. I much prefer a forward cant if the holster rides high. Without it, it's tough to fold my arm enough to get a good grip since the gun is basically in my arm pit. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

January 8, 2017, 03:51 PM	#13
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I'm mid 60's and far from lean and hard. My body shape plays into carrying. .My belly gets in the way of 2 to 3 oclock carry,so,at this point,appendix carry is not so good. But if the gun is vertical,as I move back to war 3 oclock and beyond,vertical,the grip protrudes like the tailfins on a 1959 Desoto..(or handles on a wheelbarrow if you don't know what a 59 Desoto looks like) A forward tilt minimizes the protrusion of the handle. I understand what the OP means by planting the grip per Leathan. I agree.However,cocking the wrist downward helps the hand to hook inside of,and sweep back,the cover garment.(open jacket,shirt tail,or vest)As this occurs,the hand is cocked at near 45 deg,and the web of the hand is ideally presented to the backstrap and spur or beavertail. At least,thats how it works for me Last edited by HiBC; January 8, 2017 at 08:15 PM.

January 5, 2017, 12:46 PM	#3
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	The forward cant allows me to effectively conceal a larger pistol at 3-3:30, without printing. It actually slows down the draw, and have to contort a little. It be a trade off am willing to make.

January 5, 2017, 09:40 PM	#7
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	The FBI cant was originally designed for revolvers. It helped conceal the gun by reducing the printing effect. It held the gun closer to the body. It allowed agents to clear the leather faster. Granted the wrist had to be bent in order to make a smooth draw but to the practiced shooter this was a small inconvenience. It also helped agents when sitting in cars for extended periods of time. Many of my holsters use the FBI cant and I have not had any problems using them.

January 5, 2017, 11:54 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	One of my favorite holsters is the old Bucheimer Federal Man, a right side, OWB thumb paddle holster with a decided forward tilt. The tilt would not be good IF the holster were worn low (i.e., "cowboy" style) but for a gun worn high for concealment under a suit coat or sports jacket, the draw is with the forearm sloped down and backward. The gun barrel is in line with and an extension of the forearm. Jim

January 6, 2017, 04:15 AM	#9
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,324	It is basically a matter of draw mechanics. Your elbow only goes back so far. At 2-3, a straight cant is about right for me. Between 3-430, I need the can't to go from 5deg to 25deg, for my hand to align well and my gun to not drag during the draw. I prefer an extreme ~25 deg FBI can't.

January 6, 2017, 11:14 AM	#10
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	For me, the forward cant causes me to bend forward at the waist just a bit into a good firing stance, too.

January 8, 2017, 01:01 AM	#11
vmr357 Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Utah Posts: 24	Thanks for all the replies. One thing I see from all this is that you have to work within your physical abilities. You have to match your rig to what you can do. Position of the gun and physical flexibility are very important. In my case, maybe I had the gun a little too high for my level of flexibility. I can bring my elbow high enough that my fingertips will touch the top of my hip bone, but in that position my wrist has no flexibility at all. My arm won't go higher, so a high ride makes it hard for me to clear a holster no matter what the orientation of the holster might be. If I have a forward tilt/cant in my holster and it's at 3 or 4 o'clock my hand hits the butt of the gun, but I can't get my palm on the back strap. If I move the gun around to 4-5 o'clock it feels good on my hip and I can get my palm on the grip, but have a very difficult time pulling the gun. Bad shoulders are the pits. So for me, a straight drop works best and one that's not too high. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing about the forward tilt. Thanks for all the comments.

January 8, 2017, 01:53 AM	#12
armedleo Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2015 Posts: 265	After learning the fundamentals of safe and proper draw and re-holster, the rest is about finding what works best for you that allows for a comfortable carry with smooth and efficient draw. After that its all about practice. I personally never liked the FBI cant and favor 3 o'clock at 90 degrees. But there is a reason today's holsters afford adjustable angles. Find the one best for you.

January 8, 2017, 07:45 PM	#14
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	With the FBI Cant came the FBI hip swivel that opened the coat and gave more room for the agent to grasp his revolver and draw. A slight twist to the right, then a forward twist to the left, opening the coat and clearing the draw.

January 11, 2017, 11:03 AM	#15
OhioGuy Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2016 Posts: 1,089	I've found that a 15 degree cant carried at around 1-2 o'clock allows the grip of the weapon to follow the contour of my waist, rather than sticking off to the side and out past my belt as it does with a straight drop. This makes it print a bit less, and so long as it's not carried right in front at the 12 o'clock position doesn't make it very awkward to draw (right in front, and you have to bend your wrist in a funny angle, but closer to 1:30-2:00 it's minimal). I find that tradeoff pretty good since it helps to conceal a little better.

January 17, 2017, 09:17 PM	#17
SansSouci Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2013 Location: Heart of Reagan Country Posts: 479	The Firearms Training Division of the FBI is usually right n target; however, in my opinion, the FBI cant ain't a good idea. It almost encourages a bad guy to take a gun. And yes, bad guys do practice disarming cops. I like Avenger type holster that have a vertical draw. Should a bad guy attempt to grab my gun, retention strategies are far more efficacious. Maybe this might be useful: I was taught oh so many years ago that if a suspect who's under the influence of PCP were to grab my gun, he'd take it and there won't be a damned thing I'd be able to do to prevent it. Hence, the crucial importance of situational awareness and knowing when to leave a potentially bad environment.

February 4, 2017, 11:51 AM	#18
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	The FBI cant, was basically for a Revolver, that funny shaped gun, with a big lump in the middle! My Glock 19 likes to be straight up and down. When I stand naturally, my right forearm is along side my pistol. When I take my first, and final grip of the gun, it is drawn straight up, then swivels to the front, barrel is now parallel to the deck. The pistol is then punched forward, into the support hand, stops, and fires, at full extension, level with the eyes. The recoil of the 9mm tells you where the shot went, not were it is going! Dry fire your carry pistol, from the holster a few thousand times, the click of the firing pin releasing, leaves you with a perfect sight picture. (or should!)

February 4, 2017, 07:34 PM	#19
Kevin Rohrer Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 1,049	The forward cant is good for concealing, but not so good for gripping and drawing. I have few forward cant holsters. Most of the 70+ holsters I own are zero-cant. A few are rearward cant, which makes them very easy to grip and very fast to draw and aim. A Davis T-Omega I had made w/ a slight rearward cant A Davis Realist (1AT clone) w/ a slight rearward cant A Davis Gunsite Omega that is zero-cant __________________ Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion. Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer

February 5, 2017, 01:23 AM	#20
Vic1951 Member Join Date: January 30, 2017 Location: I am in the South Posts: 30	If you carry your gun at about 4:30 or more, it is a easier and faster draw for me. It is awkward to draw my gun in a holster with no cant. When reaching past the midline on your side, your hand naturally will cant to the front and you will be able to get a full combat grip on your gun. To see what I mean look at a small of the back carry. It is very canted since your hand will be canted too when you grab the gun. As you move that gun more towards your side, the cant can be reduced until midline when you do not need a cant at all if that is your pleasure. When I competed, we all had a cant to our speed holsters because it did give us a faster draw. I never saw anyone who seriously competed using a holster with no cant to it. For me it is a faster draw as my hand naturally cants as I move it to my side to grip a gun.

February 5, 2017, 08:08 AM	#21
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 958	I've been working my way toward more cant recently, as I've started carrying closer to 5 o'clock than 3:30, as I used to. It certainly does allow you to conceal a larger gun more easily, since the grip moves up rather than out: Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

February 10, 2017, 09:45 AM	#23
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Cant, pike and peavey: I remember options like 'kick out', there were a few holsters with enough kick out to make an elbow rest. The kick out holster made it difficult to look cool when walking through narrow doors and then there was the problem with paint chips. F. Guffey

February 10, 2017, 06:05 PM	#24
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	In the position you wear your holster, you cant the rig enough so the drawing hand can EASILY establish a firing grip while the gun is still in the holster. One reason for the "FBI" ~4:00 position was that it worked well with their suit coats. For an automatic worn in that position you may need more or less cant to achieve the goal of 'a firing grip while still on the holster' requisite. If you need to adjust your grip after or during the draw movement, then you need to move the holster location or adjust the cant to allow a firing grip while the gun is still in the holster. For many of us, a moderate butt forward cant with an OWB holster at 3:30 to 4:00 accomplishes that provision. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; February 10, 2017 at 06:15 PM.

February 14, 2017, 08:47 PM	#25
locnload Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2010 Location: Northern Colorado Posts: 118	This is one of those subjects that we as concealed carriers can cuss and discuss until the cows come home. Our body shape, torso, arm length and mobility or flexibility all play a part in what works best for us. A good cant worked for me when I was younger and skinnier, now not so much. Ilike straight up about 3:00.

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