Is this okay to do?

hometheaterman · June 3, 2010, 06:48 PM

So when seating bullets it seems like they each vary by up to .005. I find the ones that seat to deep if I put them in the bullet puller and give it a hit or two on the ground then run it through the seater again it comes out to the right length. Then on the ones that are too long I find if I run them through the seating die again this time doing the handle harder it will often seat them to the correct depth. Is this safe and okay to do?

Sevens · June 3, 2010, 07:14 PM

This is unnecessary and doesn't serve your loads well.

You didn't mention if we are talking about rifle or handgun loads -- but bullets are seated by the seating die with a device that may or may not even be touching the point of the bullet, but rather a part of the bullet further down it's body. When it seats the bullet this way, the tip may vary from bullet to bullet by a smidge, but because they are being seated properly and consistently, you will have the same volume inside the case each time which is the most important thing.

When we measure COAL, it's our way of "cheating" to find out if we have the same internal space from round to round. We don't really know the internal space, we merely make an educated guess by sticking to a similar COAL.

But if your bullet tips vary by a thousandth or two, that doesn't really matter as long as the internal space is the same from round to round.

When you tap your bullet out to try and alter that, you may think you are getting a more consistent COAL, but all you are accomplishing is to alter the internal space which is reason we measure COAL in the first place.

Clear as mud, right?!

MOREAMMO · June 3, 2010, 07:39 PM

I felt your frustration too at one time. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. I measured the bullet itself and found variances in the bullet length. I bought a bullet comparator and found that the seating depth does not vary much at all.

mrawesome22 · June 3, 2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

We don't really know the internal space, we merely make an educated guess by sticking to a similar COAL.

This is where weight sorting your brass comes into play. If all your cases weigh the same, they should be very close is volume. Accuracy is all about consistency.

hometheaterman · June 3, 2010, 09:57 PM

So how far can the OAL vary before changing the POI? I'm loading rifle cases btw. I'm trying to seat them to 2.616". Most are between 2.615-2.619. Some might be right outside of that but I don't think any were. My concern is I don't want to sight the gun in and then get one a little off when hunting and miss a deer or just wound him or something like that because the OAL was slightly different and made it shoot to a different poi than what I had sighted in for. Or is this a non worry?

I took out a box of box Federal and Hornady factory soft points and the difference between the OAL was huge. I thought it would be the same but some were way off. some were even .010" or so off if not slightly more than that. I'm not sure if it's a big difference between soft points and the Hornady SST's I'm loading though.

vranasaurus · June 3, 2010, 10:18 PM

You need to get a comparator. It will allow you to measure COL from the ogive of the bullet which is far more consistent.

Measuring from the tip is going to drive you nuts.

Qtiphky · June 4, 2010, 06:33 AM

You're talking a difference of .004 (from 2.615-2.619) correct? With my loads, that hasn't been enough of a difference from sighting in POI to change POI. If your target OAL is 2.617, you're only .002 off from that. As you noticed, factory loads vary quite a bit.

I set my depth, measure the first 4-5 to make sure it is holding and then only check about every 5th round to make sure it hasn't changed. At hunting ranges for whitetail deer, your POI won't change enough that that small of a difference is anything to worry about.

Sevens · June 4, 2010, 07:17 AM

If you want to REALLY know how much difference it makes, there's only one way: testing. Most have found that it doesn't make a huge difference, but the folks who would know better than anyone else are the bench rest shooters and the long range high power match shooters.

A hunting application requires a certain level of accuracy & repeatability, but nothing whatsoever like the two I mentioned above. In hunting, you could poorly estimate your target distance and create a MUCH larger deviation from where you plan to where you hit than most any change in case prep or handloading would ever cause.

As long as you are working with rifle bullets that have an exposed lead point you will be working with bullets (and thus loaded rounds) whose COAL is going to drift. You've already compared your hard work to a box of factory ammo, that should be enough of a nod to let you know that you are on the right track.

Rifleman1776 · June 4, 2010, 07:39 AM

Keep your brass in the same batches. Trim to same lengths. If there is no problem with your dies or press, all should be same length.
I have never heard of, or even considered, that bullets would be different lengths. But that wouldn't make any difference when seated.

wncchester · June 4, 2010, 07:59 AM

"..the ones that are too long I find if I run them through the seating die again this time doing the handle harder it will often seat them to the correct depth. Is this safe and okay to do? "

IF you mean is it "safe and okay" to reseat live ammo, it's as safe as it was the first time.

Variations in case and/or bullet length will have no effect on loaded OAL.

You seem to have proven that it's variations in your press operation that's responsible for your OAL variations. Take the time to do it consistantly and your OALs will become more consistant.

All that said, OAL variations of 5 thou is no variation at all for sporter rifles.

Doodlebugger45 · June 4, 2010, 10:18 AM

Sevens basically said this already but it bears repeating. The tip of the bullet never contacts the rifling. Your seating die is pushing on the ogive of the bullet, not the tip. The ogive is where it is going to make contact with the lands of the rifle. That distance is what is critical to accuracy, not the length from the tip. Chances are your seating die is doing a better job than you give it credit for. Measuring the length from the tip is the easiest of course and it surely does give you a good idea about the overall consistency in a gross fashion. A variation of 0.005" though is no big deal.

hometheaterman · June 4, 2010, 10:30 AM

Well, I measured a few bullets and as you guys said they vary themselves. So maybe that's what it is.

**Mal H** · June 4, 2010, 10:31 AM

Sevens said it best with his very first sentence:

"This is unnecessary and doesn't serve your loads well. "

After seating a bullet the first time, the case's grip on the bullet is generally tight. It isn't only the tension of the case around the bullet, but it goes beyond that into a force occurring at the atomic level.

If you bang on the bullet with a puller and then reseat it or just seat it a little deeper, you have disturbed the "set" of the bullet. In other words, you may have made the grip on the bullet a bit lighter than it would have been if left alone after the first seating.

The advice from several concerning measuring OAL is very good advice.

June 3, 2010, 06:48 PM	#1
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	Is this okay to do? So when seating bullets it seems like they each vary by up to .005. I find the ones that seat to deep if I put them in the bullet puller and give it a hit or two on the ground then run it through the seater again it comes out to the right length. Then on the ones that are too long I find if I run them through the seating die again this time doing the handle harder it will often seat them to the correct depth. Is this safe and okay to do?

June 3, 2010, 07:14 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	This is unnecessary and doesn't serve your loads well. You didn't mention if we are talking about rifle or handgun loads -- but bullets are seated by the seating die with a device that may or may not even be touching the point of the bullet, but rather a part of the bullet further down it's body. When it seats the bullet this way, the tip may vary from bullet to bullet by a smidge, but because they are being seated properly and consistently, you will have the same volume inside the case each time which is the most important thing. When we measure COAL, it's our way of "cheating" to find out if we have the same internal space from round to round. We don't really know the internal space, we merely make an educated guess by sticking to a similar COAL. But if your bullet tips vary by a thousandth or two, that doesn't really matter as long as the internal space is the same from round to round. When you tap your bullet out to try and alter that, you may think you are getting a more consistent COAL, but all you are accomplishing is to alter the internal space which is reason we measure COAL in the first place. Clear as mud, right?! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 4, 2010, 06:33 AM	#7
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	Shouldn't make a difference You're talking a difference of .004 (from 2.615-2.619) correct? With my loads, that hasn't been enough of a difference from sighting in POI to change POI. If your target OAL is 2.617, you're only .002 off from that. As you noticed, factory loads vary quite a bit. I set my depth, measure the first 4-5 to make sure it is holding and then only check about every 5th round to make sure it hasn't changed. At hunting ranges for whitetail deer, your POI won't change enough that that small of a difference is anything to worry about.

June 4, 2010, 07:17 AM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If you want to REALLY know how much difference it makes, there's only one way: testing. Most have found that it doesn't make a huge difference, but the folks who would know better than anyone else are the bench rest shooters and the long range high power match shooters. A hunting application requires a certain level of accuracy & repeatability, but nothing whatsoever like the two I mentioned above. In hunting, you could poorly estimate your target distance and create a MUCH larger deviation from where you plan to where you hit than most any change in case prep or handloading would ever cause. As long as you are working with rifle bullets that have an exposed lead point you will be working with bullets (and thus loaded rounds) whose COAL is going to drift. You've already compared your hard work to a box of factory ammo, that should be enough of a nod to let you know that you are on the right track. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 3, 2010, 07:39 PM	#3
MOREAMMO Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Location: Southeast WI Posts: 144	I felt your frustration too at one time. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. I measured the bullet itself and found variances in the bullet length. I bought a bullet comparator and found that the seating depth does not vary much at all.

June 3, 2010, 09:57 PM	#5
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	So how far can the OAL vary before changing the POI? I'm loading rifle cases btw. I'm trying to seat them to 2.616". Most are between 2.615-2.619. Some might be right outside of that but I don't think any were. My concern is I don't want to sight the gun in and then get one a little off when hunting and miss a deer or just wound him or something like that because the OAL was slightly different and made it shoot to a different poi than what I had sighted in for. Or is this a non worry? I took out a box of box Federal and Hornady factory soft points and the difference between the OAL was huge. I thought it would be the same but some were way off. some were even .010" or so off if not slightly more than that. I'm not sure if it's a big difference between soft points and the Hornady SST's I'm loading though.

June 3, 2010, 10:18 PM	#6
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	You need to get a comparator. It will allow you to measure COL from the ogive of the bullet which is far more consistent. Measuring from the tip is going to drive you nuts.

June 4, 2010, 07:39 AM	#9
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Keep your brass in the same batches. Trim to same lengths. If there is no problem with your dies or press, all should be same length. I have never heard of, or even considered, that bullets would be different lengths. But that wouldn't make any difference when seated.

June 4, 2010, 07:59 AM	#10
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"..the ones that are too long I find if I run them through the seating die again this time doing the handle harder it will often seat them to the correct depth. Is this safe and okay to do? " IF you mean is it "safe and okay" to reseat live ammo, it's as safe as it was the first time. Variations in case and/or bullet length will have no effect on loaded OAL. You seem to have proven that it's variations in your press operation that's responsible for your OAL variations. Take the time to do it consistantly and your OALs will become more consistant. All that said, OAL variations of 5 thou is no variation at all for sporter rifles.

June 4, 2010, 10:18 AM	#11
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Sevens basically said this already but it bears repeating. The tip of the bullet never contacts the rifling. Your seating die is pushing on the ogive of the bullet, not the tip. The ogive is where it is going to make contact with the lands of the rifle. That distance is what is critical to accuracy, not the length from the tip. Chances are your seating die is doing a better job than you give it credit for. Measuring the length from the tip is the easiest of course and it surely does give you a good idea about the overall consistency in a gross fashion. A variation of 0.005" though is no big deal.

June 4, 2010, 10:30 AM	#12
hometheaterman Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Posts: 382	Well, I measured a few bullets and as you guys said they vary themselves. So maybe that's what it is.

June 4, 2010, 10:31 AM	#13
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Sevens said it best with his very first sentence: "This is unnecessary and doesn't serve your loads well. " After seating a bullet the first time, the case's grip on the bullet is generally tight. It isn't only the tension of the case around the bullet, but it goes beyond that into a force occurring at the atomic level. If you bang on the bullet with a puller and then reseat it or just seat it a little deeper, you have disturbed the "set" of the bullet. In other words, you may have made the grip on the bullet a bit lighter than it would have been if left alone after the first seating. The advice from several concerning measuring OAL is very good advice.