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Old March 10, 2018, 08:56 PM   #1
csmsss
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DOJ proposing to regulate bump stocks as machine guns

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...to-rifles.html

Well...I'd certainly like to see how they can with a straight face claim that a stock in and of itself is a firearm. Since there are no details included in the Fox News link, all anyone can do for the time being is speculate, but I for damn sure would like to know what twisted interpretation of existing statutes was assembled to provide the statutory underpinning for this.
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Old March 10, 2018, 09:34 PM   #2
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It's going to depend on whether or not the judge that hears the case goes by what laws exist or creates laws from the bench but I don't see a bump stock ban by fiat passing court review.

If Obama could have banned those, he would have.

It's such a pity Trump lied to us concerning his support for the 2nd. Amendment. He could have been so much more.
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:49 AM   #3
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Most people outside of evil black rifle gun owners even knew what a bump stock or bump firing was till after LV.
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Old March 11, 2018, 02:58 AM   #4
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Well...I'd certainly like to see how they can with a straight face claim that a stock in and of itself is a firearm.
They can, and most likely will. Are you familiar with the "drop in auto sear" for the AR-15? The ATF has ruled that, that part, and that part ALONE is legally a machinegun. And I don't mean having an AR with that part in it, I mean having that part, period, even without having an AR at all, just that one part, all by itself, is legally a machinegun and subject to all machine gun rules, including fine and jail time if you have an unregistered one.

Don't think they can regulate a stock, because its not a firearm?? Think again.

They've been doing it for 84 years now!

Put a stock on a pistol, and see if they don't claim jurisdiction!!!

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It's such a pity Trump lied to us......
Wake up and smell the coffee, Trump was never going to be another Adams or Jefferson. What matters is whether or not he becomes a Quisling!!
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Old March 11, 2018, 12:06 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
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It is delusional to think that many 'pro-gun' politicians truly understand or are committed to the issue. They bait and switch you for contributions.

The next horror show will quite likely bring them on board the AWB train with alacrity.

The NRA (discussed in other threads) really hasn't developed a message outside of ones aimed at increasing choir fund raising and even some of those don't ring true to folks. They benefit by being the only serious game in town but they can lose that and become like the pro-smoking lobby years ago.
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Old March 11, 2018, 03:41 PM   #6
johnwilliamson062
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They benefit by being the only serious game in town
Unfortunately many believe they are the only place to turn.

An auto-sear is less of a stretch than a suppressor and that has passed muster for a long time.

I just wonder ow they will define it.
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Old March 11, 2018, 03:57 PM   #7
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I smell lawsuits coming.
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:27 PM   #8
Gary L. Griffiths
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I'm cool with that, so long as (in the spirit of compromise), they repeal the Hughes Amendment so that new machine guns can again be registered.

We can fight the 1934 NFA as infringement battle another day!
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Old March 12, 2018, 01:06 PM   #9
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@Gary
Ya I think we could all probably live with that.. If they reopened the registry so the current bump stocks (*clears throat* "Machine Guns") could be registered it would make them moot.

Somehow I doubt it goes down like that.
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Old March 12, 2018, 01:44 PM   #10
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This will probably put the brakes on large volume rapid fire on farms and private property.
Calls of rapid fire could result in closer scrutiny from an Officer, since the encounter could net a bump stock. Not that people with illegal would use them, really but maybe hopes of catching someone.
Back in the days of police scanners, a lot of rural gun fire calls were basically ignored because it was just folks having fun... but I bet after they are banned, the sound of bump firing will attract attention, especially early on.
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Old March 12, 2018, 03:02 PM   #11
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This is very scary because now DOJ can regulate administratively and bypass the legislative process. The push and pull of the legislative process is good for our representative form of government. People who are short sighted complain that nothing gets done, but things move slowly for a good reason.

Wait until one day an unfriendly DOJ bypasses Congress and administratively bans semi auto ARs and 30 round mags, based on this precedence. Then all the short sighted fools who said they saw no use for bump stocks will get their just desserts.
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Old March 12, 2018, 04:21 PM   #12
Glenn E. Meyer
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That's why the NRA and supposed gun friendly legislators needed to push some of the proposed legislation that would forbid bans on gun types. However, that never happened (nor will it, I'm afraid).

The currents courts are all ok with bans (despite wishful thinking of some).
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Old March 12, 2018, 06:34 PM   #13
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I used to enjoy rapid fire. My best average (witnessed) was 11 empties in the air at one time. Semi auto. NO bump stock, no crank, no using a belt loop, no gadget of any kind except my trigger finger.

And yes, I was hitting my target, though not making tight tiny groups.

I learned a few things, including how my vaunted H&K 91 would jam after about 6-7 rounds, if fired as fast as I could. Really neat jam, too, it would extract the fired case, rotate it 180 degrees and feed it base first into the chamber!!! Never did that if you only fired at a rate of 2 rounds per second, or less, though...


They could declare your grandmother's knitting needles as assault weapons, ban new sales and require a registry of all currently owned. It would be legal, until/unless a court said it wasn't.
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Old March 12, 2018, 07:37 PM   #14
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In general I'd say my belief on our constitution is such that the government was not intended any ability to limit anyone's access to any type of firearm. That's my own interpretation - very strict on the point.

And that point to me includes full auto firearms. That was something given up in another place and time, an error in interpretation if you ask me.

Actually I even question taking guns away from "criminals" - often that classification seems to be too inclusive, encompassing peaceful acts of disobedience that are not even remotely violent.

But with all that said - we've had a ban on full auto's for some time. You can get into the technicality of the whole thing (and I agree it's not a firearm) but a bump stock is indeed made as a way to undermine the ban on full auto's.

What I am much more concerned about though is the manner in which the federal government will go about banning them. If they are grandfathered with no paperwork, ie no new sales allowed, that's one thing. If they are forced to be registered that's another thing (and if they impose additional checks on those for qualifications to keep them).. If they outright ban them and force destruction/buy-back/turn-in/confiscation well that's a whole different thing too which would be completely unprecedented.
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Old March 12, 2018, 10:18 PM   #15
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I doubt every full auto was registered because of NFA, no way every bump stock will be registered. It's a "feel good" move at the most. New ones won't be sold, companies will go out of business, there will be a few prosecutions, the Left will gain a talking point.

I am deeply upset how the Right appears to have jumped on the (apparent) bandwagon of "universal background checks" and "raising the age limit" when neither of those would have prevented any mass shooting. They should be holding true to their principles but those appear to be something politicians just don't have.

I could never be a politician. I answer questions, I base all my opinions on sound fact and principle, no party would have me.
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Old March 13, 2018, 05:57 AM   #16
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Shoelaces have been registered as machine guns. Some firearms without triggers have been classified as machine guns. It's no stretch for bump stocks to be restricted as such. Honestly, it's kind of amazing they didn't shut the whole thing bump stock thing down after the Akin's Accelerator.

Ideally, we'd pass a purposefully sloppy bill put forth by a pro-gunner that would unnecessarily open the registry for the alleged purpose of adding bump stocks to it (and not close it again). But it seems like the 2nd Amendment is more of a position of political convenience than anything these days.
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Old March 13, 2018, 06:29 AM   #17
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineguntony
This is very scary because now DOJ can regulate administratively and bypass the legislative process.
The ATF and other regulatory agencies have been given the power by congress to regulate. That is what the do, this is nothing new.

The FDA regulates food and drugs, the ATF regulates firearms, etc.
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Old March 13, 2018, 06:42 AM   #18
Don P
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It's such a pity Trump lied to us concerning his support for the 2nd. Amendment. He could have been so much more.
Just curious, as to your viewpoint. How does the bump stock infringe on your/our 2 ND. amendment rights? I understand give a inch and take a mile.
What about the auto sear that 44 AMP mentioned, is that an infringement on your 2 ND. amendment rights??????? just my opinion here but folks are starting to sound like its the end of the world because bump of the issue with bump stocks.
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Old March 13, 2018, 08:22 AM   #19
ATN082268
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Originally Posted by csmsss View Post
Well...I'd certainly like to see how they can with a straight face claim that a stock in and of itself is a firearm.
Although there will be other contributing factors, the main death of the Second Amendment will be primarily from unelected bureaucrats and judges...
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Old March 13, 2018, 08:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Machineguntony View Post
This is very scary because now DOJ can regulate administratively and bypass the legislative process. The push and pull of the legislative process is good for our representative form of government. People who are short sighted complain that nothing gets done, but things move slowly for a good reason.

Wait until one day an unfriendly DOJ bypasses Congress and administratively bans semi auto ARs and 30 round mags, based on this precedence. Then all the short sighted fools who said they saw no use for bump stocks will get their just desserts.
Bureaucrats make more laws (via regulations) than Congress ever will. Don't look to Congress and/or the courts to overturn overzealous bureaucratic regulations on guns...
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Old March 13, 2018, 09:29 AM   #21
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To be fair, if someone gives you a pile of straw and says “Build the castle we legislated into existence last night”, you are going to have to fill in a few blanks to get there.

One of the reasons bureaucrats have a massive amount of power is because Congress delegates hard decisions to bureaucrats so they don’t have to answer to angry constituents (and that’s when they aren’t just throwing a pile of poorly considered, badly drafted legislation at an agency on a non-controversial issue).

Congress CAN end that. They just have zero incentive to do so.
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Old March 13, 2018, 09:39 AM   #22
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Well...I'd certainly like to see how they can with a straight face claim that a stock in and of itself is a firearm.
The same way they did away with the Atkins accelerator and AW-SIM, for that matter a piece of string makes a machinegun out of a mini14.

The more tricky part would be the fact that they have been over the slidefire and it’s lack of spring or rather the required input from the shooter makes it not a machinegun.

Then again we are talking about people that answer questions with things like “it depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”
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Old March 14, 2018, 02:07 AM   #23
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iirc the shoestring machine gun was registered purposefully to prove a point how stupid the law was..

I don't think the ATF classified shoe strings as machine guns even when looped in such a matter as it was on the rifle.

But I could be wrong that was a while ago so fresh my memory the details of it.
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Old March 14, 2018, 10:23 AM   #24
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Logic, and what the Federal government will prosecute for, are not always 100% congruent.

I've heard stories, and since I cannot provide any cites, links, or references, I will present them only as hearsay, but here are a couple things I've heard...

Both these stories involve "tommyguns". First story is that a guy made a miniature tommygun. Apparently a genius modeler, every part was faithfully reproduced. I don't remember exactly but the gun was something like 1/16th scale or so. Entire gun from buttplate to muzzle wasn't quite 3 inches long.

The feds took him to court for making an unregistered machine gun.

Second story, different guy, but also a Tommygun,, this time a full size one, again, all parts faithfully reproduced, including a rifled barrel. This one, except for the springs, was entirely made of wood.

Same charges brought in Federal court.

While both cases were thrown out, that didn't happen until the case went before a judge. So despite the almost certain awareness that these cases would go no where, the Fed went ahead with them anyway.

They can do whatever they want. The fact that they would not be successful obtaining a conviction doesn't stop charges being filed and a day in court.

I think the sound byte headline is a bit misleading. It will come down to technical language, and specific legal language but I don't see where the Feds are saying bumpfire stocks ARE machine guns, they're saying regulate them AS machineguns.

Which, I take to mean as NFA items.

I believe that the ATF under the Obama administration made the correct decision. Under existing federal law, they are not NFA items. I believe that "proposing" to regulate them as NFA items is being done to placate certain political groups, and is being done with full awareness that it may not survive a court challenge, under current federal law.

However, the law can be changed, and some folks are working to do just that. A change in the law could give the ATF legal authority it currently does not have.
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Old March 14, 2018, 03:04 PM   #25
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IMO Bump Stock addition as a NFA or prohibited item is not precedent setting

Simple feel good "look we Did Something" politics...

***Of 360 Million population with 14 Million AR 15s but only about 75,000 Bump stocks

The hatred and angst by current or future owners is VERY insignificant

*** all numbers pulled out of rectum--- but I think close

I do not see every bump stock owner want to march on the capitol in anger and opposition

In fact ,, I have a couple of friends who paid the bucks...played with it and took back off...not all that fun, waists expensive ammo, cool for a full minuet but back to what I Bought the AR to do

Yes the indignant may want to stop any and all 2a restrictions.... and fundamentally I agree ...BUT this is a technical looser IMO

Still not sure why suppressors are NFA

NONE are Holly wood Pfft super quiet....myth
Most can make a weapon more accurate
All can lower hearing loss from shooting sports
No Mass shooting ever used a suppressed weapon
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