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July 24, 2019, 05:55 PM | #76 | |||
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My DD-214, thanks to typical Army efficiency, reflects that I qualified with the M14. However, I never saw an M14 after I finished AIT. My duty weapons were either the M1 Carbine or the M16 rifle, both of which I had to qualify with before I was allowed to carry one. I didn't "qualify" with it, but I also fired the M1911A1 as a member of my battalion's competition shooting team at my CONUS permanent duty station. So my DD-214 doesn't show any handgun training. Florida's state law requires proof of "firearms" safety training, so a DD214 showing only the M14 was acceptable. Many states, however, require proof of handgun safety training. Let's run down your list and see which states may actually accept a DD-214. I'm using the second part of your list, the part that says, "Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Montana, New Mexico, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, West Virginia and Wisconsin all allow qualified veterans to either take fewer hours of required firearms training courses or skip them all together, depending on the state." Colorado: Documentary evidence demonstrating competence with a handgun as specified in section 18-12-203 (1)(h) of the Colorado Revised Statute. (see TRAINING REQUIREMENTS SECTION for further details) 18-12-202.5 "HANDGUN TRAINING CLASS" MEANS: (a) A LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING FIREARMS SAFETY COURSE; (b) A FIREARMS SAFETY COURSE OFFERED BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, AN INSTITUTION OR ORGANIZATION OR FIREARMS TRAINING SCHOOL, THAT IS OPEN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND IS TAUGHT BY A CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR; OR (c) A FIREARMS SAFETY COURSE OR CLASS THAT IS OFFERED AND TAUGHT BY A CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR. From Colorado's Application Criteria: Demonstrates competence with a handgun by submitting: 1. evidence of experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service, 2. evidence that, at the time the application is submitted, the applicant is a certified instructor, 3. proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Armed Forces within the three years preceding submittal of the application, or 4. proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Armed Forces that reflects pistol qualifications obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application, 5. a training certificate from a “handgun training class” (see definitions) obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application. The applicant shall submit the original training certificate or a photocopy thereof that includes the original signature of the class instructor. In obtaining a training certificate from a handgun training class, the applicant shall have discretion in selecting which handgun training class to complete. So, for Colorado, not all DD-214s are accepted. All are good if less than three years old, and if more than three years but less than ten years must show pistol qualification. DD-214s older than ten years are not accepted. - - - - - - - - - - Illinois: Illinois requires 16 hours of training. A DD-214 may be substituted for "up to" eight ours of the required 16. "Any remaining hours that the applicant completes must at least cover applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm Instruction as well as Weapons Handling as defined in the statute and administrative rules. The Instructor shall verify the aggregate number of hours for which the applicant provided proof of instruction in Firearms Safety, Basic Principles of Marksmanship, and Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm, based upon a list provided by the Department of accepted training courses, and provide the necessary additional hours of training to equal 16. Applicants must meet the minimums set out in the 16 hour curriculum. The instructor will need to assess and verify the areas on which the applicant was previously trained and modify the blocks of instruction in sections 1, 2, and 3 to cover the remaining requirements. Sections 4 and 5 should remain unaltered." For Illinois, a DD-214 may be worth something, but not more than 8 hours of the required 16 hours -- and that's up to the discretion of the instructor. A 30-year old DD-214 showing that you qualified on the M16 rifle won't satisfy the requirement for proof of instruction in the Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm. - - - - - - - - - - Iowa: Statute: 724.9 Firearm safety training. 1. An applicant for an initial permit to carry weapons shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm safety by any of the following means: ... 4. If firearm safety training is required under this section, evidence of such training may be documented by any of the following: a. A photocopy of a certificate of completion or any similar document indicating completion of any course or class identified in subsection 1 that was completed within twenty-four months prior to the date of the application. b. An affidavit from the instructor, school, organization, or group that conducted or taught a course or class identified in subsection 1 that was completed within twenty-four months prior to the date of the application attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant. c. For personnel released or retired from active duty in the armed forces of the United States, possession of an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions issued any time prior to the date of the application. d. For personnel on active duty or serving in one of the national guard or reserve components of the armed forces of the United States, possession of a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and qualification issued prior to the date of the application, or any other official documentation satisfactory to the issuing officer issued prior to the date of the application. For Iowa, it appears that a DD-214 is acceptable. - - - - - - - - - - - Kentucky: From the Kentucky State Police web site http://kentuckystatepolice.org/ccdw/...ualifications/ Quote:
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- - - - - - - - That's the first four states out of 12 listed. Your assertion was that "most" states accept the DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training. What I've found so far doesn't support that as a blanket assertion. I'm not going to spend more time on it. You made the statement. It's up to you to spell out which of the states accepts the DD-214, and to what extent. The ball is in your court ... |
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July 24, 2019, 06:07 PM | #77 | |||||
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July 24, 2019, 08:24 PM | #78 |
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Back in 1997, not long after it was enacted, I got my Texas CHL. The class was fairly rigorous and took up a full day. In 2000, I moved to a state that didn't allow CC at the time (Ohio). Knowing I would be returning home, I didn't get an Ohio CCW while there. I finally returned and got my Texas LTC in 2016. Man! How things have changed! The half-day class barely covered any of the things I considered critical back in '97, chief among which is non-violent conflict resolution. The shooting aspect wasn't radically different, but I wish they would not have eliminated so much of the cerebral part of carrying a weapon. I unequivocally support the RTKBA, but I also support teaching the accompanying responsibilities just as strongly.
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July 24, 2019, 09:43 PM | #79 | |||
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Either you do not know that or are being kind of petty simply because California only service. Kind of a given that you must provide some form (DD214) of proof. And the DD214 can be used in place of attaining a Firearms Safety Certificate TRAINING in the state of california. I have NEVER seen a DD214 list "Handgun" Qualifications. Maybe if you did a year or two and have absolutely nothing else to put on it. I bet even then you would have talk very nicely to the clerk she would add it along with your grenade qualification, LMAO. On serious note, they did change what goes on a DD214 and marksmanship badges are no longer listed. However, in Kentucky..... Quote:
http://www.jcsoky.org/ccdw.htm Quote:
Wow, you are wordsmithing. Separation vs Discharge. I was still honorably discharged from period of service or at least I will be by age 60. An honorable period of service begets an honorable discharge at the end. Last edited by davidsog; July 24, 2019 at 10:07 PM. |
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July 24, 2019, 10:16 PM | #80 | |
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July 25, 2019, 09:04 AM | #81 | |
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July 25, 2019, 09:26 AM | #82 | |
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Even the retired are discharged. There is a difference between discharge, seperation, and getting a piece of paper that says "discharge. I have 4 Honorable discharge certificates including the one issued with my flag and pin upon retirement. Technically I was only separated though in 2012 as retiree's enter the Retired Ready Reserve and are subject to recall until 30 years of active service or age 60 whichever is first IIRC. You received an Honorable discharge certificate upon separation from active duty if the characterization of your service is honorable. You were not officially discharged through until you served your 8 years in the Individual Ready Reserve/active or any combination of service. In other words, a 2 year enlistment gets you 6 years on the IRR. That is a generalization, I wasn't a clerk and the Army adjust's as it needs. Nobody calls you up nor do you get a certificate at the official discharge date. In practical terms every considers themselves "discharged" when they get the little certificate that says "Discharged" and outprocess active service. Technically that is not correct. A DD214 is my proof of service and the only real proof of service although some states lower the standard to just an ID card. You cannot get an ID card if you are separated without a DD214 to put you in DEERS. Yes I interpreted California law to apply only to active duty, active reserve, or retired. Only a retired seperation code would qualify. They applied the same standard to Military personnel that they apply to LEO's. Neither is required to take any additional training to receive a Firearms Safety Certificate. Only Active LEO's and Military or retired LEO's/Military qualify. Last edited by davidsog; July 25, 2019 at 09:35 AM. |
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July 25, 2019, 03:48 PM | #83 | |
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July 25, 2019, 04:47 PM | #84 | |
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July 25, 2019, 05:15 PM | #85 | ||
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You do realize a DD214 is proof of retired status. It is THE legal proof of retired status. Quote:
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July 25, 2019, 06:02 PM | #86 | ||
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Let's go back to where we started this side excursion: In post #66 you wrote:
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So you then changed the subject and brought California into the mix. And the California law specifically grants an exception to retired military personnel. Yes, a DD-214 will show retired status -- if you are retired. But not all holders of DD-214s are retired. Most are separated or discharged after terms of service that fall short of qualifying for retirement. Bottom line: your statement that "most" states accept the DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training remains in question, and you have not offered anything definitive to support it. |
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July 25, 2019, 08:36 PM | #87 | ||||||
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There are 23 states listed on that website I posted in my first posting. Quote:
Louisiana: Quote:
Mississippi has Constitutional Carry and does not require a CCL. However, they do issue an "Enhanced CCL" that allows carry in some prohibited areas and enjoys reciprocity with other states according the Mississippi. That requires an 8 hour training in Firearms which is waived if you have DD214 and honorable discharge. The fee is waived if you are disabled veteran. It does not say what percentage only disabled and have a letter from the VA. Quote:
For New Mexico: Quote:
Texas: Quote:
That is just the states you are saying only waive the fees. They waive the training too. |
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July 25, 2019, 08:38 PM | #88 | |
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July 25, 2019, 09:53 PM | #89 |
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And.... so it devolves. Again
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July 25, 2019, 11:13 PM | #90 | |
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For starters, I just fired up www.handgunlaw.us and started at the upper right corner of the map (Maine) and went down the eastern states. Maine - accepts DD-214 New Hampshire - No training requirement Vermont - No permits issued or required Massachusetts - DD-214 not accepted Connecticut - DD-214 not accepted Rhode Island - DD-214 not accepted New Jersey - DD-214 not accepted New York - Varies by county, but does not appear that any accept DD-214 Pennsylvania - No training required Delaware - DD-214 not accepted Maryland - Accepts DD-214 Virginia - Accepts DD-214 West Virginia - Accepts DD-214 only if it documents handgun qualification North Carolina - DD-214 not accepted South Carolina - Accepts DD-214 Kentucky - DD-214 not accepted Tennessee - Accepts DD-214 only if it documents handgun qualification Georgia - No training requirement Florida - Accepts DD-214 So, for this subset, out of 14 states with a training requirement, 8 don't accept the DD-214 at all, and two only accept it if it documents handgun training. That leaves four out of 14 that accept the DD-214 without restriction. That's not "most." You can take it from there ... Last edited by Aguila Blanca; July 26, 2019 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Tennessee updated |
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July 26, 2019, 09:20 AM | #91 | |||
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Literally the first one I checked.....
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July 26, 2019, 09:29 AM | #92 |
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And when Kentucky did have a CCL and training requirement...
An affidavit of Military Service stating you know which end of the handgun bullet goes out of is enough. They do not even require you submit a DD214, LOL. http://kentuckystatepolice.org/wp-co..._affidavit.pdf |
July 26, 2019, 09:32 AM | #93 |
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While it is been interesting and I would enjoy pursuing nailing down a better picture, I think the topic warrants its own thread and stop hijacking this one.
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July 26, 2019, 09:43 AM | #94 |
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I called Tennessee at (615) 251-8590 as the State does not post their application forms. A DD214 reduces the fee to 68 bucks and waives the firearm training requirement. They want an affidavit or a copy of handgun qualification training too.
Might warrant its own thread. |
July 26, 2019, 12:17 PM | #95 | |||
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Whether or not a state requires a permit is irrelevent. Your statement was that of states that issue permits and require training, "most" accept a DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training. I don't dispute that some states accept the DD-214; I cited some two posts up. My problem is the contention that "most" accept the DD-214. I don't think that's a correct statement. As the person who made the statement, properly speaking it is your responsibility to document it now that the statement has been challenged. Regarding Kentucky, I'm not sure what you just posted supports your contention. They do still issue permits, and the permit requires proof of training. Quote:
Your information on Tennessee does not support your contention that they accept the DD-214. By your own admission, "They want an affidavit or a copy of handgun qualification training too." Actually, it's not "too." They don't care about a DD-214 unless it shows handgun training. https://www.tn.gov/content/tn/safety...fications.html Quote:
Carry on. |
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July 26, 2019, 01:40 PM | #96 |
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I took my "class" back in 1981 in now liberal CT. It consisted of no classroom instruction just a 1/2 hour of shooting a .22LR Ruger Pistol and a few rounds of .38 special through a revolver.
I didn't require any classroom as I personally read everything I could find on gun safety and technique. The shooting was also easy for me even though I'd never fired a gun. |
July 26, 2019, 02:23 PM | #97 | ||
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The State Police web site says that live fire is required, but the statute doesn't mention live fire. However, the current NRA Basic Pistol class requires live fire and I think the minimum number of rounds to satisfy the course requirements is about 75 rounds. The CT State Police obviously can include live fire as a requisite part of any other class or course they approve. |
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July 26, 2019, 07:18 PM | #98 | ||||
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Honorable Discharge and the affidavit. Proof of an Honorable is a DD214 but the state does not even require you submit that. Just the signed letter affirming you have served. It is a much lower standard than requiring a copy of the DD214 but somehow that does not count to you. Quote:
Of course you are not concerned with winning...only accuracy!! Quote:
They told me to fill this out and send it in: https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml...orm88-r.pdf||| That is patently ridiculous but what the State of Tennessee wants a DA Form 88R because of attorneys. That form is a local S3 record and ends up in trash not any permanent record. It is a simple matter of States not understanding the Military or how it works. They have some "expert" who runs his mouth thinking he knows everything. I asked if SFARTEC counted she said No, it did not count. They needed handgun training so just sent in a copy of my DA Form 88R. A minimum score of expert with both pistol and rifle is a prerequisite for SFARTEC as you will fire live ammunition within 1 meter of your fellow soldiers as they moving about in the room. You have to be accurate or people will get hurt. https://www.americanspecialops.com/p.../SFARTAETC.php Quote:
Last edited by davidsog; July 26, 2019 at 07:44 PM. |
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July 26, 2019, 07:33 PM | #99 | |||
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Your statement was that the DD-214 is accepted by "most" states. Not "military service," not "affidavit on our form" -- you wrote "DD214." Regardless of whose letterhead it's on, an affidavit is clearly not a DD-214. And the training is not waived for all military service. It's only waived with proof (or an affidavit) of handgun training in the military. It's impossible to discuss anything with you, because you continually change the parameters. |
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July 26, 2019, 07:46 PM | #100 | ||
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If a state only requires proof of Military service....then it is a DD214. The fact you keep wordsmithing simply because "DD214" is not in the language of a specific state does not change the fact that form is THE proof of service. Quote:
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