Why does Law Enforcement not like the .45?

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by reynolds357

If it were up to me, the 10mm (full power loads) would be all that L.E. carried. I carried it for many years until the dept insurance co. Made us standardize. Since Chief did not want to lose all his female officers, we got 9mm.

The reality and effects of "disparate impact" lawsuits make this a pipe dream (but you knew that ).

That's notwithstanding the questionable "ballistic advantage" of the faster moving .40 round (10mm Auto, or 10mm Norma, however far back your appreciation for it goes) ) as a service cartridge.

After all, even the original proponent of the 10mm Auto, Jeff Cooper, didn't initially envision the hotter iteration produced by Norma. Cooper envisioned the 10mm Auto as being pretty much ideal using a 200gr/1000fps cartridge.

Not every "average" handgun shooter (also meaning not every "average" cop) could probably competently and accurately utilize a 175gr/1300 or 200gr/1200 "service load" in a 10mm, just like not everyone back in the revolver days could shoot a .357 Magnum as well, meaning as controllably or as accurately, as a .38 Spl/.38Spl +P.

I get your meaning, though. I was always a proponent of wanting to require everyone to be able to handle .357 MAG, but that just wasn't the case, and eventually the use of .38 Spl +P was "standard" for quals, and the guys carrying .44 MAG on-duty were allowed to use .44 Spl for quals.

If wishes were horses ...

[tallball]

This conversation is somewhat confusing to me.

I have 1911's in 9mm, 40, and 45acp.

They all feel about the same to me, recoil-wise.

Maybe it's just because LE agencies issue lighter-weight handguns?

[agtman]

This conversation is somewhat confusing to me.
* * *
Maybe it's just because LE agencies issue lighter-weight handguns?

Or, ... maybe it's because they're preferenced to hire mostly less-capable humans?

[rodfac]

IMHO, here some of the reasons for avoiding a .45 in LEO department circles:

Effectiveness of smaller rounds, (9mm or .40 S&W), has been enhanced by the introduction of better hollow point bullets. While we can argue the validity of the testing and results, most of the data that I've seen leans in this direction, and that's what department decision makers are using for input.
Heavier recoil in the .45 than a 9mm or .40: this makes training to proficiency tougher.
Limited capacity in guns that have a grip size usable by smaller framed LEO's
Reduced magazine capacity...
Increased cost of ammunition, both in service as well as training varieties.
Public acceptance....45's may raise the perception in the public mind that our LEO's are carrying "cannons".

The shift to .40 caliber guns decades ago, answered some of the objections, albeit marginally.

Recoil, while measurably less than a .45, is still a factor, especially in the 180 gr. loads, while muzzle blast, at least in examples I've shot, is definitely greater.
Capacity is greater, but not up to the levels of a 9mm, but this too, comes at a cost, as the grip size is considerably bigger than a single stack .45. For example, my Sig P226 and M11A1 are every bit as big as any .45 I've shot with a double stack mag well.
Ammunition cost is lower than a .45, however, about mid-way between 9mm and .45 here abouts.
It does seem that public acceptance of .40's in the hands of police, has not resulted in any measurable backlash, at least in the law abiding community.

HTH's Rod

[SA1911]

Where has anyone come up with the idea that cops don't like the .45 ACP?

That last duty gun I've carried was a .45 ACP.

The 9MM is good, .40 S&W is better, the .45 ACP is king.

[SA1911]

Hi rodfac,

For a brief period of time, the 10MM was all the rage. However, when science entered the duty gun equation, it was found to be true that .40 caliber handguns were most efficacious when firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS. Hence, double stack mags of very efficacious .40 S&W ammo supplanted single stack 10MM duty weapons.

Gun design has a huge impact on felt recoil.

[SA1911]

One more point: a steel 1911-A1 has less felt recoil than lightweight 9MM handguns. It is a heavier gun, but its recoil is extremely manageable. A woman whom I taught to shoot preferred a 1911-A1 .45 ACP to any other model including an "L" Frame.

My Springfield Armory Loaded Model .45 ACP has extremely manageable recoil. I can easily keep its business end pointed at silhouette targets.

[TunnelRat]

One more point: a steel 1911-A1 has less felt recoil than lightweight 9MM handguns.

To me this depends a lot on the shooter and what you mean by lightweight 9mm. For instance, shooting 124 gr 9mm out of a Glock 19 has less recoil, to me, than my SA 1911 shooting 230 gr 45ACP. At the same time I've find perceptions of recoil to not be overly consistent.

[Ibmikey]

Agtman, I take offense to your” less capable” comment about police officers. The people I worked with for so many years were quite competent in their duties, some had failings in areas but don’t we all? I certainly would not pick Law Enforcement as a career today in this tumultuous country of 2017 where the profession is looked at more as targets than protectors.
Although some had difficulty with size, weight and recoil of certain firearms all made acceptable performance with their weapon when tested ( a few had to be prodded to get to the range but were trained until that “acceptable performance” was gained.

[rodfac]

Good points SA1911 and I totally agree that design is a major factor in overcoming 'felt' recoil...case in point...my friend's Glock .45 with it's much lower bore axis feels totally different than my Sig P220, more of a push to the rear than the up-twist felt when firing the 220. To me, my 1911's are mid-point in felt recoil, due, in part to their bore axis height, and of course, weight.

The Glock mentioned above was a complete surprise to me...as I had the notion that a very light gun would not handle the recoil well...I was wrong!

Too, grip angle, circumference, and the 'reach' length to the trigger all play a part. Size and 'meatyness' of the firing hand, as well as one's strength of grip are significant players as well.

Good comments Sir, and thanks for your service in the LEO community. Rod

[OldMarksman]

Or, ... maybe it's because they're preferenced to hire mostly less-capable humans?

Are you suggesting that "they" are in fact so "preferenced".

If so, can you offer any facts in support to that contention?

[Mike Irwin]

OK, gentlemen.

Enough discussion about hiring qualifications and the capabilities (or lack there of) of individuals.

This board is for the discussion of firearms and cartridges.

It's not about Human Resources activities or your personal views on hiring practices.

[Nanuk]

For a brief period of time, the 10MM was all the rage. However, when science entered the duty gun equation, it was found to be true that .40 caliber handguns were most efficacious when firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS.

No. Science had nothing to do with it. The original 40 loads my agency used was a 155 JHP @ 1250 fps. The issue Beretta's were breaking frames @ about 3000 rounds on average. They then lowered the pressure and the resultant velocity was @ 1200 fps. The move to the 180 grain bullet was because it had less blast and recoil and it was easier for some people to qualify with. This in turn led to a savings in remedial training and less ammo expended in training. Now many of these agencies are going to the 9mm because it is easier to shoot well and cheaper.

At least until the next shooting where the 9mm is blamed for the failure of tactics and ability.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by johnelmore

...Why dont they try the .45?

What makes you think they haven't? What makes you think that some law enforcement agencies don't currently have officers using the .45 ACP?

Four pages based on an unvalidated, and untrue, assumption. Wow!