underpressure signs

stacks04 · October 17, 2009, 08:17 AM

load data-
45acp
230gn hornady fmj.
mixed brass
federal 150 primers
4.6gr of titegroup

hey guys i am curious to figure out why my latest batch of loads left the target dirty with soot. it was spotty soot/powder particles all over the target i was using. the load shot very accurate, i made 30 rnds and shot out the middle of the target. not great distances but 20-40 ft range. the cases look to dirty like pressure is going by them. the gun fires fine, and is not dirty internally. i shot in 5 rnd groups and never had a ftf or fte. min loads were 4.4 and max is 4.8 gr. the 4.4 shot horrible and saw similar results with the cases being dirty. so i went up to 4.6 grn. i will try the 4.8 grn max load next and see if it helps anything. thanks guys.

Dragon55 · October 17, 2009, 08:34 AM

What was your OAL??
Did you crimp?

Most report cleanliness with Titegroup at that charge(4.6).

stacks04 · October 17, 2009, 09:50 AM

oal was set to hornady loading guide. dont remember off hand. and yes i crimped using the lee factory crimp guide. maybe not enough?
i ran the first batch i made though both my 1911 by racking the slide to chamber and expel a few unprimed rounds set to length and crimped to make sure the slide and ramp did not further seat the bullet in the case. they did not in either gun so i used that as my crimp guide. i did this from no crimp and adjusted to where its crimped today where the oal length did not change.

Tomas204 · October 17, 2009, 10:23 AM

well getting groups from 1 foot does not make you a better shooter

,I have no idea just wanted ta be a SA

stacks04 · October 17, 2009, 10:36 AM

thanks tomas

Dragon55 · October 17, 2009, 10:43 AM

Titegroup is one of the faster powders so I too don't understand what you had..... which sounds like late burning or no burning powder.

You sound like you know what you're talking about.... probably more so than me.

I'm sure you feel good about the quality of your powder and primers..... I'm just thinking moisture.... age.... contaminants etc.

I use Bullseye for almost everything and have never had your issues. Only residue I ever get is a little bit of soot at forcing cone. Bullseye is only just a small fraction faster than Titegroup. You're loading basically at midrange and below so I'm puzzled as well....................

Dragon55 · October 17, 2009, 10:54 AM

One more thing.......

What do your primers look like after firing???? Still flat??? Or do they look like they are 'bulging' ??

TEDDY · October 17, 2009, 08:09 PM

he is probably not burning well.I just cant see all the powders when there are tried and tru loads.I dont use bullseye but would I use 700X which is much the same and 3,6 gr with 200 gr SWC.plinking I cant see wasting expensive jackets.I have shot that load for 30 yrs in compitition.its 10 ring at 50 yds.

stacks04 · November 3, 2009, 03:18 PM

okay guys, sorry to bring this back up, i finally had time to do a real thorough cleaning on this gun. i found a stain in the chamber so to speak that matches the cases used in my test loads perfect. i am thinking now that it just isnt sealing good enough around the case. i cleaned the chamber really well and am going to make up some loads again to recheck it. i really had to look to see it, with the barrel in my hands i could not see it with out a flash light. once i get to the range i will report back.

TATER · November 3, 2009, 04:13 PM

Double check your scale.
I have been using TiteGroup for about 10 years now.
It is extremely clean burning powder when loaded at the upper end.
It is dirty as Heck at the lower end. My load for 230 grain JHPs happens
to be 4.8 grains. My load for 185 grain JHPs is 5.3 to 5.5 and by no means are they Hot loads.
My loads are used in all my .45s. They being two 1911s, HK USP Tac. and a Baby Eagle.
Be Safe.

Jeff H · November 3, 2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

okay guys, sorry to bring this back up, i finally had time to do a real thorough cleaning on this gun. i found a stain in the chamber so to speak that matches the cases used in my test loads perfect. i am thinking now that it just isnt sealing good enough around the case. i cleaned the chamber really well and am going to make up some loads again to recheck it. i really had to look to see it, with the barrel in my hands i could not see it with out a flash light. once i get to the range i will report back.

Do your cases look similar to these?

These are mine shooting 4.6g of bullseye under a 200g LSWC, I took the pic thinking the same thing as you: the case wasn't sealing. But most replies over at 1911forum seem to indicate this is normal.

Russ5924 · November 3, 2009, 07:22 PM

Look like mine but using 4.3 of W231 with a 200G SWC

stacks04 · November 4, 2009, 08:35 AM

they had some similar looks but the one i was after was a distinct long stain. i will see if i have any picks of what it looked like. it has been cleaned out and hopefully will solve my problem.

SL1 · November 4, 2009, 08:51 AM

until I work the charge up to high enough pressure to seal the case against the chamber wall. Even then, some powders are cleaner than others. Some powders seem to "stain" cases as well as leave black smudges. Others just leave the black stuff. A few (e.g., "Clays") leave almost nothing at high enough pressure. (But, "Clays" is touchy with high pressure and heavy bullets.)

I don't use Titegroup or shoot .45 ACPs, so I can't comment on our particular load.

SL1

October 17, 2009, 08:17 AM	#1
stacks04 Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 62	underpressure signs load data- 45acp 230gn hornady fmj. mixed brass federal 150 primers 4.6gr of titegroup hey guys i am curious to figure out why my latest batch of loads left the target dirty with soot. it was spotty soot/powder particles all over the target i was using. the load shot very accurate, i made 30 rnds and shot out the middle of the target. not great distances but 20-40 ft range. the cases look to dirty like pressure is going by them. the gun fires fine, and is not dirty internally. i shot in 5 rnd groups and never had a ftf or fte. min loads were 4.4 and max is 4.8 gr. the 4.4 shot horrible and saw similar results with the cases being dirty. so i went up to 4.6 grn. i will try the 4.8 grn max load next and see if it helps anything. thanks guys.

October 17, 2009, 08:34 AM	#2
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	What was your OAL?? Did you crimp? Most report cleanliness with Titegroup at that charge(4.6). __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

October 17, 2009, 10:43 AM	#6
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	Titegroup is one of the faster powders so I too don't understand what you had..... which sounds like late burning or no burning powder. You sound like you know what you're talking about.... probably more so than me. I'm sure you feel good about the quality of your powder and primers..... I'm just thinking moisture.... age.... contaminants etc. I use Bullseye for almost everything and have never had your issues. Only residue I ever get is a little bit of soot at forcing cone. Bullseye is only just a small fraction faster than Titegroup. You're loading basically at midrange and below so I'm puzzled as well.................... __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

October 17, 2009, 10:54 AM	#7
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	Oh yeah....... One more thing....... What do your primers look like after firing???? Still flat??? Or do they look like they are 'bulging' ?? __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

October 17, 2009, 08:09 PM	#8
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	45 he is probably not burning well.I just cant see all the powders when there are tried and tru loads.I dont use bullseye but would I use 700X which is much the same and 3,6 gr with 200 gr SWC.plinking I cant see wasting expensive jackets.I have shot that load for 30 yrs in compitition.its 10 ring at 50 yds.

October 17, 2009, 09:50 AM	#3
stacks04 Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 62	oal was set to hornady loading guide. dont remember off hand. and yes i crimped using the lee factory crimp guide. maybe not enough? i ran the first batch i made though both my 1911 by racking the slide to chamber and expel a few unprimed rounds set to length and crimped to make sure the slide and ramp did not further seat the bullet in the case. they did not in either gun so i used that as my crimp guide. i did this from no crimp and adjusted to where its crimped today where the oal length did not change.

October 17, 2009, 10:23 AM	#4
Tomas204 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 144	well getting groups from 1 foot does not make you a better shooter ,I have no idea just wanted ta be a SA

October 17, 2009, 10:36 AM	#5
stacks04 Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 62	thanks tomas

November 3, 2009, 03:18 PM	#9
stacks04 Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 62	okay guys, sorry to bring this back up, i finally had time to do a real thorough cleaning on this gun. i found a stain in the chamber so to speak that matches the cases used in my test loads perfect. i am thinking now that it just isnt sealing good enough around the case. i cleaned the chamber really well and am going to make up some loads again to recheck it. i really had to look to see it, with the barrel in my hands i could not see it with out a flash light. once i get to the range i will report back.

November 3, 2009, 04:13 PM	#10
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Double check your scale. I have been using TiteGroup for about 10 years now. It is extremely clean burning powder when loaded at the upper end. It is dirty as Heck at the lower end. My load for 230 grain JHPs happens to be 4.8 grains. My load for 185 grain JHPs is 5.3 to 5.5 and by no means are they Hot loads. My loads are used in all my .45s. They being two 1911s, HK USP Tac. and a Baby Eagle. Be Safe.

November 3, 2009, 07:22 PM	#12
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	Look like mine but using 4.3 of W231 with a 200G SWC __________________ Russ5924

November 4, 2009, 08:35 AM	#13
stacks04 Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Posts: 62	they had some similar looks but the one i was after was a distinct long stain. i will see if i have any picks of what it looked like. it has been cleaned out and hopefully will solve my problem.

November 4, 2009, 08:51 AM	#14
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	My .40 S&Ws look like that until I work the charge up to high enough pressure to seal the case against the chamber wall. Even then, some powders are cleaner than others. Some powders seem to "stain" cases as well as leave black smudges. Others just leave the black stuff. A few (e.g., "Clays") leave almost nothing at high enough pressure. (But, "Clays" is touchy with high pressure and heavy bullets.) I don't use Titegroup or shoot .45 ACPs, so I can't comment on our particular load. SL1

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