Other dies to reload 45 auto rim?

cjwils · November 9, 2014, 02:24 PM

Can dies for 45 ACP or 45 Colt be used to reload 45 auto rim cases?

steveno · November 9, 2014, 02:57 PM

you can use 45 acp dies to load the auto rim. you just need a different shellholder and it wouldn't hurt to have a roll crimp die instead of the taper crimp die that acp dies would normally have

condor bravo · November 9, 2014, 03:27 PM

Not much more to be said; the above post pretty much covers it. Except you would probably prefer a second die set to facilitate switching between the two, especially if using a progressive press with the dies fixed in a toolhead. Some slight die adjustments may be needed if using the same die setup for both the auto rim and ACP.

Clark · November 9, 2014, 06:27 PM

I have an S&W 25-2 that shoots 45autorim 300 gr cast 1.4" at high velocity, but any other rounds in other chambers will get the bullets yanked out.
This is way more performance than the 460 Rowland conversion at way less pressure.

So I needed a way to roll crimp a 45autorim if I don't want it to be single shot.

One has to make a die or modify a die to get there.

243winxb · November 9, 2014, 09:22 PM

RCBS makes a roll crimp seat die, if needed.

jag2 · November 9, 2014, 09:54 PM

I just got a 25-2 and was planning on reloading for it. However, I have a Forster press and will have to buy special parts to make it work along with the shell holder for my Lee auto prime so I think I'm going to give moon clips a good tryout before spending any more. Also, not sure how easy it will be to find the auto rim brass.

briandg · November 9, 2014, 10:07 PM

This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why in the world would you be required to use a roll crimp just because it's an AR instead of an ACP? The only reason a taper crimp is used on the ACP is to allow the shell to butt onto the chamber head. A roll crimp is a stronger crimp, but seriously, if a cartridge will stay in place with a taper crimp when used in an ACP, why would it be considered unsafe to use that same round in a cylinder? Thousands, maybe even millions of rounds of universal military .45 ACP ball ammo were fired through moon clipped revolvers.

Clark · November 10, 2014, 01:29 AM

243,
You are right
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/169...-45-acp-45-gap
That was nuze to me.
Too late, I have already bought extra 45 Colt seaters to shorten.

Jag,
In my opinion, moon clips are more trouble than co-ax press jaw swaps.
My 25-2 will not set off primers in moon clips.
My fingers do not like loading moon clips.
I have designed my own co-ax press jaw holder housing and retainer screws so I can swap jaws quickly while blindfolded. Some old retired machinist on another gun forum did the exact same thing 10 years before I did it.

brian,
I have a 29-4 with 24 gr H110 240 gr JHP 1.59" 44mag does not kick as hard as the 24-2 with 300 gr 1.4" 45 auto rim. That 45 auto rim recoil yanks the bullet out of the case and jams the revolver. But with a roll crimp, the bullet stays put in the case.

243winxb · November 10, 2014, 10:07 AM

Quote:

My fingers do not like loading moon clips.

That is the reason i sold my S&W. Others bought a tool to remove there brass from the moon clips. Best just to buy rimmed brass. The roll crimp helps keep the Lyman #452423 Keith design cast swc bullet from moving with maximum loads of Unique. The 238 gr bullet has a crimping groove. Velocity is around 1000 fps. I would not buy a roll crimp die unless i had a problem with bullet jump.

243winxb · November 10, 2014, 10:25 AM

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-...uto-Rim-Brass/ 45 Auto Rim Brass available now.

jag2 · November 10, 2014, 10:26 AM

Clark, you may be right. I haven't even fired it yet. (will later today) but I agree loading the moon clips wasn't a lot of fun and undoing them may be worse. I was thinking about some sort of spacers under the jaws, I'll see what happens. I don't think the gun is one that I will shoot all that often so the moon clips will probably be okay. Who knows, it may turn out to be one of my favorites and shoot it once a week. If so, everything will be subject to reevaluation.

**44 AMP** · November 10, 2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Can dies for 45 ACP or 45 Colt be used to reload 45 auto rim cases?

.45 Colt? no.

.45ACP? yes. And, its not a matter of you can use .45acp dies, you must use .45acp dies, there are no others. Dimensionally the .45 Auto Rim is the same as the .45ACP ahead of the rim.

Taper or roll crimp? Taper crimp works fine if you stick to standard loads. If you are trying to turn your Auto Rim into a magnum, then, a roll crimp might be needed with certain bullets.

My old Lyman dies, bought in the 70s have a roll crimp built in. Back in those days, if you wanted a taper crimp, you had to get a separate die.

Magnum Wheel Man · November 10, 2014, 12:09 PM

I have a custom cylinder for a Blackhawk, & can really get those boolits going... but in all honesty, I set myself up for 45 Autorim, for my 1917 Colt... the Blackhawk gets fed 45 Colt way more often than not...

**Mike Irwin** · November 10, 2014, 12:33 PM

"This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why in the world would you be required to use a roll crimp just because it's an AR instead of an ACP?"

You wouldn't.

"My fingers do not like loading moon clips."

I use RIMZ clips by Beckham Products in my 1917 Brazilian copy. They're polymer. Easy to load/unload, but hold rimless cartridges securely.

Clark · November 10, 2014, 01:51 PM

Two years ago I got Beckman moon clips from moonclips.com.

The plastic and the metal do not work in my 25-2.
They offered to give me my $28 back.
I declined and threw them on the bone pile.

Without the roll crimp and hot cast loads, the jam in the revolver can be cleared with a wooden dowel to pound the pulled out bullets back to the front of the cylinder.

**Mike Irwin** · November 10, 2014, 04:00 PM

I don't see that moonclips.com offers Beckham RIMZ clips.

"Without the roll crimp and hot cast loads"

Conversely, with a roll crimp, you likely wouldn't need to do any pounding at all.

T. O'Heir · November 10, 2014, 04:29 PM

Please reduce the size of your pictures.
The .45 Autorim is just a rimmed ACP. As mentioned, same dies, different shell holder. I'd keep the part crimp myself. Won't make any difference and you won't have to buy another die.
.45 Colt is not the same dimensions as either the Autorim or ACP. Uses a different diameter bullet for one and is bigger at the case head.

Clark · November 10, 2014, 06:04 PM

The 45 auto rim case body is between 0.466" and 0.4755" in diameter.
The 45 Colt case body is between 0.474" and 0.480" in diameter.
But the 0.456" diameter constriction in a 45 Colt seater die or roll crimping is small enough to make a strong roll crimp in a 45 auto rim case.
But the constriction is 1.14" up inside the die.
And the 45 Auto rim case has only 0.76" sticking out of a shell holder.
So for a 45 auto rim case to get at that good constriction, more than 0.354" must be cut off the bottom of the 45 Colt seater die.

briandg · November 11, 2014, 12:55 AM

I believe that starline released the AR cases about 30 years ago, give or take a few years.

Starline actually released a bunch of oddballs back at that time.

RickB · November 11, 2014, 06:54 PM

I get bullet creep with taper crimp and "standard" loads, so if keeping the bullet immobile in the case is a priority, use a roll crimp. My loads have to make a certain minimum velocity, and you can watch it declining on the chrono read-out for each successive round as the bullets creep out from recoil.
The reason that military ball ammo doesn't creep is that the bullets are glued in the case.
Moon clips are the greatest invention since sliced bread. There are tools to both install the rounds in the clips, and to remove the cases from the clips, if desired.
I bought 100 AR cases, fifteen years ago, and have still to load any. Did I mention that moonclips are the . . . OK, I did.
I have had problems with ignition if I use anything but Federal primers in my handloads (everyone I know who's loading for a revolver uses nothing but Federal primers).

condor bravo · November 11, 2014, 09:46 PM

Re: 243winxb

"RCBS makes a roll crimp die, if needed."

I can't find the above in my 2012 Midway catalog but it seems like they would have one. The closest I can find is what Redding calls their .45 ACP/auto rim crimp die as "Profile Crimp Die (only)". This is a roll crimp die but is not a bullet seating die as well. A seperate bullet seating die must be used. For anyone interested, the Midway product number is 124-288 and priced around 25 dollars.

SVTCobra306 · November 11, 2014, 11:50 PM

My Lee 4 die set specifically mentions it is for .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim. The Factory Crimp Die can be disassembled and the part that performs the crimp can be reversed so that it applies a roll crimp. The instructions actually recommend checking it prior to use to ensure the correct crimp is being applied for your application.

Magnum Wheel Man · November 12, 2014, 06:58 AM

RICK... I use mostly CCI ( & do for my auto rim ) in both my Blackhawk, & my 1917, & never had issues... curious... do you feel the need for more brisance or a softer cup ???

**44 AMP** · November 13, 2014, 11:15 PM

Quote:

(everyone I know who's loading for a revolver uses nothing but Federal primers).

You should get to know more people!

I've been using CCI more than anything else for all my loading for the past 30+ years. I have never experienced any ignition issues in Colt, Ruger S&W or any other revolver I have loaded for.

RickB · November 14, 2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

curious... do you feel the need for more brisance or a softer cup ???

Softer cup. I'll get 10% failures to ignite with any primer other than Federal.
The gun has had a factory "Master Action Job", which did not result in an especially light trigger pull weight, but the hammer fall must be just a little too light or slow.
Virtually all the revolver shooting I do is IDPA competition, with a very little USPSA sprinkled in, and I literally don't know anyone who doesn't use Federal primers exclusively, due to the soft(est) cup.

November 9, 2014, 02:24 PM	#1
cjwils Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: Washington state Posts: 401	Other dies to reload 45 auto rim? Can dies for 45 ACP or 45 Colt be used to reload 45 auto rim cases?

November 9, 2014, 03:27 PM	#3
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Not much more to be said; the above post pretty much covers it. Except you would probably prefer a second die set to facilitate switching between the two, especially if using a progressive press with the dies fixed in a toolhead. Some slight die adjustments may be needed if using the same die setup for both the auto rim and ACP. Last edited by condor bravo; November 9, 2014 at 03:59 PM.

November 10, 2014, 01:29 AM	#8
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	243, You are right http://www.midwayusa.com/product/169...-45-acp-45-gap That was nuze to me. Too late, I have already bought extra 45 Colt seaters to shorten. Jag, In my opinion, moon clips are more trouble than co-ax press jaw swaps. My 25-2 will not set off primers in moon clips. My fingers do not like loading moon clips. I have designed my own co-ax press jaw holder housing and retainer screws so I can swap jaws quickly while blindfolded. Some old retired machinist on another gun forum did the exact same thing 10 years before I did it. brian, I have a 29-4 with 24 gr H110 240 gr JHP 1.59" 44mag does not kick as hard as the 24-2 with 300 gr 1.4" 45 auto rim. That 45 auto rim recoil yanks the bullet out of the case and jams the revolver. But with a roll crimp, the bullet stays put in the case. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

November 10, 2014, 10:25 AM	#10
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Starline 45 Auto Rim brass https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-...uto-Rim-Brass/ 45 Auto Rim Brass available now.

November 10, 2014, 12:09 PM	#13
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I have a custom cylinder for a Blackhawk, & can really get those boolits going... but in all honesty, I set myself up for 45 Autorim, for my 1917 Colt... the Blackhawk gets fed 45 Colt way more often than not... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

November 9, 2014, 02:57 PM	#2
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	you can use 45 acp dies to load the auto rim. you just need a different shellholder and it wouldn't hurt to have a roll crimp die instead of the taper crimp die that acp dies would normally have

November 9, 2014, 06:27 PM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have an S&W 25-2 that shoots 45autorim 300 gr cast 1.4" at high velocity, but any other rounds in other chambers will get the bullets yanked out. This is way more performance than the 460 Rowland conversion at way less pressure. So I needed a way to roll crimp a 45autorim if I don't want it to be single shot. One has to make a die or modify a die to get there. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

November 9, 2014, 09:22 PM	#5
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	RCBS makes a roll crimp seat die, if needed.

November 9, 2014, 09:54 PM	#6
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	I just got a 25-2 and was planning on reloading for it. However, I have a Forster press and will have to buy special parts to make it work along with the shell holder for my Lee auto prime so I think I'm going to give moon clips a good tryout before spending any more. Also, not sure how easy it will be to find the auto rim brass.

November 9, 2014, 10:07 PM	#7
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why in the world would you be required to use a roll crimp just because it's an AR instead of an ACP? The only reason a taper crimp is used on the ACP is to allow the shell to butt onto the chamber head. A roll crimp is a stronger crimp, but seriously, if a cartridge will stay in place with a taper crimp when used in an ACP, why would it be considered unsafe to use that same round in a cylinder? Thousands, maybe even millions of rounds of universal military .45 ACP ball ammo were fired through moon clipped revolvers.

November 10, 2014, 10:26 AM	#11
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Clark, you may be right. I haven't even fired it yet. (will later today) but I agree loading the moon clips wasn't a lot of fun and undoing them may be worse. I was thinking about some sort of spacers under the jaws, I'll see what happens. I don't think the gun is one that I will shoot all that often so the moon clips will probably be okay. Who knows, it may turn out to be one of my favorites and shoot it once a week. If so, everything will be subject to reevaluation.

November 10, 2014, 12:33 PM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why in the world would you be required to use a roll crimp just because it's an AR instead of an ACP?" You wouldn't. "My fingers do not like loading moon clips." I use RIMZ clips by Beckham Products in my 1917 Brazilian copy. They're polymer. Easy to load/unload, but hold rimless cartridges securely. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 10, 2014, 04:00 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I don't see that moonclips.com offers Beckham RIMZ clips. "Without the roll crimp and hot cast loads" Conversely, with a roll crimp, you likely wouldn't need to do any pounding at all. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 10, 2014, 04:29 PM	#17
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Please reduce the size of your pictures. The .45 Autorim is just a rimmed ACP. As mentioned, same dies, different shell holder. I'd keep the part crimp myself. Won't make any difference and you won't have to buy another die. .45 Colt is not the same dimensions as either the Autorim or ACP. Uses a different diameter bullet for one and is bigger at the case head. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 10, 2014, 06:04 PM	#18
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The 45 auto rim case body is between 0.466" and 0.4755" in diameter. The 45 Colt case body is between 0.474" and 0.480" in diameter. But the 0.456" diameter constriction in a 45 Colt seater die or roll crimping is small enough to make a strong roll crimp in a 45 auto rim case. But the constriction is 1.14" up inside the die. And the 45 Auto rim case has only 0.76" sticking out of a shell holder. So for a 45 auto rim case to get at that good constriction, more than 0.354" must be cut off the bottom of the 45 Colt seater die. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

November 11, 2014, 12:55 AM	#19
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I believe that starline released the AR cases about 30 years ago, give or take a few years. Starline actually released a bunch of oddballs back at that time.

November 11, 2014, 06:54 PM	#20
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I get bullet creep with taper crimp and "standard" loads, so if keeping the bullet immobile in the case is a priority, use a roll crimp. My loads have to make a certain minimum velocity, and you can watch it declining on the chrono read-out for each successive round as the bullets creep out from recoil. The reason that military ball ammo doesn't creep is that the bullets are glued in the case. Moon clips are the greatest invention since sliced bread. There are tools to both install the rounds in the clips, and to remove the cases from the clips, if desired. I bought 100 AR cases, fifteen years ago, and have still to load any. Did I mention that moonclips are the . . . OK, I did. I have had problems with ignition if I use anything but Federal primers in my handloads (everyone I know who's loading for a revolver uses nothing but Federal primers).

November 11, 2014, 09:46 PM	#21
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Re: 243winxb "RCBS makes a roll crimp die, if needed." I can't find the above in my 2012 Midway catalog but it seems like they would have one. The closest I can find is what Redding calls their .45 ACP/auto rim crimp die as "Profile Crimp Die (only)". This is a roll crimp die but is not a bullet seating die as well. A seperate bullet seating die must be used. For anyone interested, the Midway product number is 124-288 and priced around 25 dollars.

November 11, 2014, 11:50 PM	#22
SVTCobra306 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Posts: 434	My Lee 4 die set specifically mentions it is for .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim. The Factory Crimp Die can be disassembled and the part that performs the crimp can be reversed so that it applies a roll crimp. The instructions actually recommend checking it prior to use to ensure the correct crimp is being applied for your application. __________________ Former US Army Paratrooper (1/509th PIR and 2nd BCT 82nd ABN DIV) 2 time OIF Veteran NRA Certified RSO/CRSO NRA Certified Pistol Instructor

November 12, 2014, 06:58 AM	#23
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	RICK... I use mostly CCI ( & do for my auto rim ) in both my Blackhawk, & my 1917, & never had issues... curious... do you feel the need for more brisance or a softer cup ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...