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March 6, 2014, 01:25 PM | #51 |
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What I was referring to was your language that Thomas agreed "that the case was correctly decided." Which I read as stating that Thomas was saying that Peruta was correctly decided, and of course he was not. He didn't think that Richards was correctly decided either--he "reluctantly agreed" only that the outcome was compelled by Peruta, not that it was "correct".
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March 6, 2014, 02:20 PM | #52 |
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Gotta give Thomas some credit, he's a better judge than 4 on the Supreme Court.
Given Heller, 4 of them still didn't vote for McDonald |
March 6, 2014, 02:32 PM | #53 | |
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From following the discussion, I was under the impression there was some multi-tiered issue raised that included an assertion that open carry wasn't allowed in enough of the county to count as exercising the right. If that was one of the legs Pertua was figuratively trying to stand on, doesn't that mean the court had to examine that leg as part of their job? |
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March 6, 2014, 08:19 PM | #54 |
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At the time Peruta was decided in the trial court, California still allowed open unloaded carry--as long as you were not in a GFSZ or were in an unincorporated area. The trial court held that this allowance was sufficient to protect the right, notwithstanding Plaintiff's argument that open unloaded is utterly useless in case of a sudden emergency, and granted the Sheriff's motion for summary judgment. The law changed while the case was on appeal.
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March 7, 2014, 01:40 AM | #55 |
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I guess I am thick. Because one Cali law barred open carry, Gore's exercise of his discretion to determine "good cause" under another Cali law for the issuance of concealed carry permits was held unconstitutional. The law barring open carry didn't exist at the complained of times and was enacted later. How then could Gore's complained of conduct injured Peruta?
Did he resubmit an application or request reconsideration after the law prohibiting open carry was in effect? Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; March 7, 2014 at 02:09 AM. |
March 7, 2014, 09:02 AM | #56 |
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Dreaming, I think you might have mixed up the two cases.
Regardless, In both Richards v. Prieto and in Peruta v. San Diego, the main complaint was that neither Sheriff (Prieto and Gore, respectively) would accept "self defense" as good cause for the issuance of a concealed carry license. At the time these cases were filed, you could lawfully carry an unloaded handgun, openly (UOC - Unloaded Open Carry). Both Richards and Peruta argued that carrying an unloaded firearm was not the same as being fully prepared for confrontation. That is, an loaded firearm was essentially useless if you were attacked and needed the firearm, now. That was the original nature of the complaint. The only method of carrying a loaded and ready handgun was concealed carry, under CA law, and that the authorities administering the law did not accept self defense as good cause. The injury was that both were denied the effective means of self defense under CA law. The Richards case was the first case filed. Yet the Peruta case was the first one that was decided. The Judge in Peruta decided that UOC was all that was necessary to fulfill the requirements of the second amendment. The Judge in Richards essentially said the same thing. During the time both cases were on appeals to the 9th circuit, the CA legislature changed the law and banned any form of open carry within the limits of a city/town. That changed an essential nature of the lawsuits. Reading Judge O'Scannlain's opinion, although it would not have changed the nature of his decision. It did make his decision easier. Under the operating parameters of the second amendment, as laid out by the Supreme Court in Heller, the State must allow at least one form of armed carry. The State of CA had chosen concealed carry as that means. That the State did, in the form of licensed concealed carry. Where the injury was in the Sheriffs interpretation of the State "Good Cause" clause, the Sheriffs must include "self defense" as good cause. No State law was struck down. Only a policy of individual interpretation of the law was ruled unconstitutional. Does that help with your confusion? |
March 7, 2014, 01:39 PM | #57 | |
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Second, I thought one of the big "holes" people were debating about with Heller was that it didn't directly deal with carry outside the home, and like that comma in the second amendment, people were arguing about what the inclusion of "in the home" meant. I thought the only thing Heller directly dealt with for this was that requiring unloaded was too much of a burden. |
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March 7, 2014, 03:30 PM | #58 | |
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Possession of a loaded handgun in the home was the central question in Heller.
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March 7, 2014, 03:34 PM | #59 |
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And Heller was decided the year before these cases were filed.
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March 7, 2014, 05:32 PM | #60 |
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Richards and Peruta are part of the wave of "carry cases" filed very soon after the Heller decision came down.
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March 8, 2014, 03:51 PM | #61 |
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Al, Thanks for trying to clear things up for me, but I remain in the dark. I don't think I confused Peruta with Richards at this point, at least,
Essentially, how can Gore have violated a right to carry concealed, if that right didn't exist at the time the permit was denied, but later arose as a result of the open carry prohibition effective in 2011? |
March 8, 2014, 06:36 PM | #62 | |
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It seems a bit philosophical, but as I've understood from these guys explaining it, the rights exist whether we know/recognize/codify them or not. For example, we ratified the Bill of Rights in 1791. However, according to this philosophy, we still had a right to free speech in 1775. That's why, from time time, you'll see people say the rights are enshrined, or recognized, etc. but not granted by the Bill of Rights. So had nothing changed, the 9th MIGHT have said unloaded open carry doesn't meet the core right of self defense, and still held the same regarding Gore's Good Cause policy. |
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March 8, 2014, 07:28 PM | #63 | |
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March 8, 2014, 08:04 PM | #64 |
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The right to bear arms existed even before loaded open carry or unloaded open carry was banned, but Peruta found that this right could be provided if open carry was available (as long as it wasn't regulated to the point of non-existence), and if it was provided Cali needn't provide for concealed carry.
Perhaps Gore's denial of good cause was continuing when unloaded open carry was banned. |
March 8, 2014, 09:45 PM | #65 | |
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March 8, 2014, 10:25 PM | #66 |
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Simply that whether or not one acted validly is usually determined by the law in effect at that time. It appears that the original denial was constitutionally valid, but the enactment barring unloaded open carry made his continuing denial unconstitutional.
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March 8, 2014, 10:38 PM | #67 |
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Well, the March 6th deadline came and went without any judges on the 9th Circuit requesting en banc review.
The Yolo County sheriff's department has until the 19th if they want to ask for review. Beyond that, only Ms. Harris' motion can trigger it.
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March 8, 2014, 10:56 PM | #68 | |||
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I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying "the tea leaves appear to say no way Jose". Quote:
Harris was really trying to get one of the 9th Circuit judges to put Peruta into en banc status. We now know that failed. Oh heck yeah. We're going to see Peruta stand and take effect, preserving the huge gaping 12ga-sized blast hole of a circuit split in time for the Supremes to decide on Drake. Dominos are falling just like we need 'em to here.
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March 9, 2014, 03:48 AM | #69 | ||
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For that matter, if she's denied standing, why can't she still apply for cert, and claim an additional error in not giving her standing? Quote:
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March 9, 2014, 05:40 AM | #70 |
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It looks like extensions to file petitions were granted the Brady Campaign and the State, those extensions extended the deadline to make a call, as I read the rules, until 7 days after the new deadline for filing petitions.
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March 9, 2014, 11:18 AM | #71 | |
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Last edited by maestro pistolero; March 9, 2014 at 01:35 PM. |
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March 9, 2014, 11:22 AM | #72 | ||
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I agree many courts, laden with anti-civil rights types, will hide behind pedantry as you appear to be hiding. The inability of SCOTUS to cope with it's workload, and reluctance to take 2A cases in general gives additional boldness to those anti-civil rights pedants and it therefore makes UOC a politically viable, if still clearly unconstitutional, option. I do agree with you that no deadline has yet passed wrt en banc calls. Depending on how one reads the various bits of information out there, we might be waiting for a number of weeks yet. The best timeline, afaict, from Librarian is something like: Here is the link to that order dated 3/5/2014: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...-Intervene.pdf So this translates to: 1) Waiting for parties (6000 word max) responses by 3/26/2014. (or did I miscount?) Response will address: a) Motion to Intervene by State of California b) Motion for Leave to Intervene by Brady Campaign c) Petition for Rehearing En Blanc by Amici Curiae California Police Chiefs’ Association and California Peace Officers’ Association insofar as the Petition is a motion to intervene 2) Unknown wait for court to rule if they have standing 3) ??? Last edited by speedrrracer; March 9, 2014 at 11:28 AM. |
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March 9, 2014, 01:25 PM | #73 | |
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March 9, 2014, 01:38 PM | #74 | |
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I believe a petition is already filed from the CAL AG, pending a grant or denial of standing to intervene. |
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March 9, 2014, 02:00 PM | #75 |
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maestro pistolero, I thought that is what you meant, but it is easy to get things backwards when posting. At least it is for me.
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2nd amendment , ca may issue , firearm rights , saf/gura |
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