Luger vs. P-38 historical preference ???

Lavan · March 17, 2000, 01:37 PM

Does anyone know which pistol the Germans ...PREFERRED...if given a choice? Just curious as both were in service in WW2 and I was wondering which they preferred.

Yanus · March 17, 2000, 01:58 PM

The P-38 was created due to the expense
and durability of the Luger. The Luger is
built like a Swiss watch, thus requiring
more machining, which is costly. Second,
the P-38 is far more robust than the Luger.
The Germans needed a pistol that could be
mass produced in large numbers.

------------------
Never do an enemy a minor injury. Machiavelli
"Stay alive with a 45"

Lavan · March 17, 2000, 02:19 PM

Yanus....Thanks, but I know that info. I am curious as to whether the troops/officers using each had a preference.

You know...like our GI's swapping 1911A1's for carbines.

Would Heinrich rather carry a Luger or a Walther? Both were issued and carried in same places. Were they traded and which was preferred by the guys depending on them?

Forseti · March 17, 2000, 05:59 PM

After watching "Tales of the Gun" on the history channel, if I was to choose a gun to USE, rather than collect, I'd take the P38. Its single action/double action (the Luger is single action on the first round), the P38 has fewer parts, and looked like a better pistol to pack if you needed to use it.

But if someone was giving them away today, I'd take a Luger.

radom · March 17, 2000, 07:55 PM

P-38 of course.

foxfire · March 17, 2000, 08:48 PM

Lavan,

I prefer the looks, handling, and accuracy of the P-38.
My dad, who was there, says he remembers seeing more German soldiers carrying Lugers.
He's always liked the P-08 better.
Ah, the 'war stories' that ol' man can still tell...

------------------
...defend the 2nd., it protects us all.
No fate but what we make...

Alx · May 3, 2013, 05:53 PM

NOTE a correction, to a mistaken statement above ...

The Luger actually has fewer parts ( about 16 fewer ) than the P38.

parts count : Luger = about 40

P38 = about 56

The Luger is also SIMPLER, to understand and field strip, all the way down to the firing pin, with NO TOOLS. You can see the entire action ( it's more linear ) of a Luger easily, ..... but the rotating parts and processes going on inside the frame of the P38 are actually more complicated.

But yes, the Luger is more complicated and costly to make, the price for that increased functional simplicity.

SaxonPig · May 3, 2013, 06:13 PM

I am just guessing here, but given the German love of fine engineering I suspect the typical German soldier would have preferred the stylish and more precisely built P08 over the more utilitarian P38. Note that every GI wanted to bag a souvenir Luger while nobody complained that he hadn't found a Walther, yet. I suspect it was the same with the German grunts.

I, of course, have an example of each...

BoogieMan · May 3, 2013, 06:21 PM

They lived in a communist dictatorship. They were not aloud to like anything they were not issued.
My guess would be officers would prefer the luger.

RickB · May 3, 2013, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Would Heinrich rather carry a Luger or a Walther?

You might have to ask Heinrich, and Florian, and Erich, et al. I'll bet no small number of G.I.s would have perferred a .38 revolver to the M1911A1, but nobody asked!
I've never even held a P-38, so can comment only on my dislike for DA/SA triggers, but the Luger is, contrary to what you hear, something of an ergonomic nightmare. I suspect the P-38 feels much more "modern" in the hand, due to the shape of the grip, but it has the same awful sights as the Luger. I'd chose MY Luger over any P-38, but would probably choose a P-38 if it were a choice of random examples of the two types.
I'd think most soldiers, cops, etc., would choose the gun that they have, if it works, over anything else with which they are not familiar.

Microgunner · May 3, 2013, 06:37 PM

SaxonPig, is that a P-38 or a P-1? It looks like an aluminum frame.

Microgunner · May 3, 2013, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoogieMan

They lived in a communist dictatorship.

Boogieman, the Nazis were definitely not communists.

shouldazagged · May 3, 2013, 07:08 PM

Not all the Germans preferred either. The first handgun I ever owned, given to me when I was twelve by a family friend who had fought his way through North Africa and Italy, was a Walther PP he took off a Wehrmacht officer "who no longer needed it."

I've also read that some of the higher-ranking officers liked Smith & Wesson revolvers.

Bob Wright · May 3, 2013, 07:15 PM

From what I've observed in photographs, German officers preferred neither. Most carried small caliber (.25 ACP, .32 ACP or .380 ACP, or the metric equivalents) Walther PP or Mauser M1910/M1934, plus it seems some preferred the Beretta M1934.

Bob Wright

James K · May 3, 2013, 07:26 PM

German senior officers usually bought their own pistols, and could carry about anything that was on the market. Lower ranks, NCO's and others who carried pistols took what they were issued.

Obviously I never ran a survey of preferences, but a few German vets I did know had a sentimental attachment to the P.08, almost a symbol of Germany, but preferred the P.38 for practical reasons, much the same as American troops today sometimes express nostalgia for the "45" but have no problems with carrying and using the M9A1.

Some of the HP models made during the war were sold to servicemen who wanted a gun that would be supported by unit armorers yet would be private property and could be retained after final victory - a victory that never came, of course.

Jim

jglsprings · May 3, 2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

aloud

I believe the word is "allowed".

Best wishes, Captain Pedantic.

James K · May 3, 2013, 08:19 PM

The cost comparison is interesting. In 1935, each P.08 cost the German military RM70. With mass production and some production shortcuts, the price in 1942 had fallen to RM45. But at the latter date, the P.38 was costing only RM32, enough of a saving to justify the decision to discontinue P.08 production and have Mauser tool up for P.38 production; little time was lost in the changeover, since Mauser was able to re-tool for P.38 production while still running its P.08 lines.

Jim

Super Sneaky Steve · May 3, 2013, 09:38 PM

Here's mine. It's pretty but isn't very accurate.

towboat-er · May 3, 2013, 10:43 PM

Mine is quite accurate. Love shooting this gun

**Mike Irwin** · May 3, 2013, 11:39 PM

"They lived in a communist dictatorship."

What school did you go to that taught you that the Nazi were Communists?

Walt Sherrill · May 4, 2013, 07:29 AM

As I understand it, it wasn't a matter of complexity, etc. that made the P-38 superior to the Luger as a SERVICE WEAPON -- it was the fact that the Luger was generations older, in terms of design and production, and that much hand-fitting was required. That was NOT the case with the P-38. Lugers were costly, and slow to make, and with a good bit of hand-fitting required during production. That hand-fitting was the problem, and it extended beyond production.

In the field, you couldn't interchange all parts from the P-08 easily with other Lugers, where that was much less of a concern with the P-38. Lugers must have been an armorer's nightmares. If something broke, you couldn't just slap in a part from the bin; it had to be fit. (Our own 1911s didn't have that problem. I don't think it was as big a problem with the P-38s, either -- but have not read THAT in any sources.)

Notice how nearly all of the parts on a Luger are serialized? That helps keep the parts together when detail stripped. If some of them are hand-fit, keeping parts together is time-saving for those difficult weapons.

I've owned several Lugers and one P-38 (and have shot other P-38s), and I much preferred the Lugers for shooting and accuracy. But, I didn't have to use the P-08s in the field, in combat, etc. -- where they had a reputation for being hard to keep running right in dirty field conditions.

Pilot · May 4, 2013, 09:08 AM

I have both, and vastly prefer the P-08 Luger. Mine is a 1941 Mauser, and it has been 100% reliable with all ammo that I have used. This includes bulk FMJ, JHP (yes it feeds all hollow point SD ammo perfectly), and my reloads including truncated cone.

My Luger is more accurate than my P-38, and has a much better trigger. As German officers carried a pistol as a sign of rank, and ego, I am certain they preferred the Luger over the more commonly machined P-38.

James K · May 4, 2013, 07:52 PM

"Lugers must have been an armorer's nightmares. If something broke, you couldn't just slap in a part from the bin; it had to be fit."

Well, that is what is often said. But I have many times "slapped in" parts in Lugers and never had to fit any. By the Luger era, tooling, especially in Germany, was plenty good enough that fitting parts was not really required.

As far as I can determine, the method of preliminary assembly and numbering parts for re-assembly after finishing was nothing more than a holdover from earlier times. It was done, not only for the P.08, but for the K.98k as well, and there is rarely a problem with "drop in" parts for the rifles.

The practice of inspecting, stamping and serial numbering each part must have been a huge drag on production, and there does not seem to have been any reason for it, except that military contracts called for it. And why did the military require it? The best answer I could ever get was simple "because we had always done it that way". To the military mind, that is a good enough reason.

Jim

Pico · May 5, 2013, 07:45 AM

I always heard the German soldiers prized the Browning HP over both. When they took over Belgium, they had FNH /Browning make them with Wehrmacht markings. Correct me here but isn't the BHP the only handgun ever used in a war by both sides?

Pico

RickB · May 5, 2013, 10:00 AM

The Nazis were also using the Norwegian version of the M1911.
A lot of guns supplied to U.S. "allies" in the '50s and '60s ended-up in the hands of various people that we had to shoot at, later.
I'm sure G.I.s have faced ARs just about everywhere they've been since the mid-60s.

March 17, 2000, 01:37 PM	#1
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Luger vs. P-38 historical preference ??? Does anyone know which pistol the Germans ...PREFERRED...if given a choice? Just curious as both were in service in WW2 and I was wondering which they preferred.

May 3, 2013, 05:53 PM	#7
Alx Member Join Date: May 31, 2006 Posts: 56	Luger has fewer parts than a P38 NOTE a correction, to a mistaken statement above ... The Luger actually has fewer parts ( about 16 fewer ) than the P38. parts count : Luger = about 40 P38 = about 56 The Luger is also SIMPLER, to understand and field strip, all the way down to the firing pin, with NO TOOLS. You can see the entire action ( it's more linear ) of a Luger easily, ..... but the rotating parts and processes going on inside the frame of the P38 are actually more complicated. But yes, the Luger is more complicated and costly to make, the price for that increased functional simplicity.

May 3, 2013, 06:21 PM	#9
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	They lived in a communist dictatorship. They were not aloud to like anything they were not issued. My guess would be officers would prefer the luger. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

May 3, 2013, 06:37 PM	#11
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	SaxonPig, is that a P-38 or a P-1? It looks like an aluminum frame. __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

May 3, 2013, 07:08 PM	#13
shouldazagged Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2013 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 273	Not all the Germans preferred either. The first handgun I ever owned, given to me when I was twelve by a family friend who had fought his way through North Africa and Italy, was a Walther PP he took off a Wehrmacht officer "who no longer needed it." I've also read that some of the higher-ranking officers liked Smith & Wesson revolvers. __________________ "Don't let macho be your epitaph." ---Ed Lovette

March 17, 2000, 01:58 PM	#2
Yanus Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Location: Nowherespecial, TX Posts: 437	The P-38 was created due to the expense and durability of the Luger. The Luger is built like a Swiss watch, thus requiring more machining, which is costly. Second, the P-38 is far more robust than the Luger. The Germans needed a pistol that could be mass produced in large numbers. ------------------ Never do an enemy a minor injury. Machiavelli "Stay alive with a 45"

March 17, 2000, 02:19 PM	#3
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Yanus....Thanks, but I know that info. I am curious as to whether the troops/officers using each had a preference. You know...like our GI's swapping 1911A1's for carbines. Would Heinrich rather carry a Luger or a Walther? Both were issued and carried in same places. Were they traded and which was preferred by the guys depending on them?

March 17, 2000, 05:59 PM	#4
Forseti Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 201	After watching "Tales of the Gun" on the history channel, if I was to choose a gun to USE, rather than collect, I'd take the P38. Its single action/double action (the Luger is single action on the first round), the P38 has fewer parts, and looked like a better pistol to pack if you needed to use it. But if someone was giving them away today, I'd take a Luger.

March 17, 2000, 07:55 PM	#5
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,353	P-38 of course.

March 17, 2000, 08:48 PM	#6
foxfire Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: Tennessee Posts: 689	Lavan, I prefer the looks, handling, and accuracy of the P-38. My dad, who was there, says he remembers seeing more German soldiers carrying Lugers. He's always liked the P-08 better. Ah, the 'war stories' that ol' man can still tell... ------------------ ...defend the 2nd., it protects us all. No fate but what we make...

May 3, 2013, 06:13 PM	#8
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	I am just guessing here, but given the German love of fine engineering I suspect the typical German soldier would have preferred the stylish and more precisely built P08 over the more utilitarian P38. Note that every GI wanted to bag a souvenir Luger while nobody complained that he hadn't found a Walther, yet. I suspect it was the same with the German grunts. I, of course, have an example of each...

May 3, 2013, 07:15 PM	#14
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	From what I've observed in photographs, German officers preferred neither. Most carried small caliber (.25 ACP, .32 ACP or .380 ACP, or the metric equivalents) Walther PP or Mauser M1910/M1934, plus it seems some preferred the Beretta M1934. Bob Wright

May 3, 2013, 07:26 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	German senior officers usually bought their own pistols, and could carry about anything that was on the market. Lower ranks, NCO's and others who carried pistols took what they were issued. Obviously I never ran a survey of preferences, but a few German vets I did know had a sentimental attachment to the P.08, almost a symbol of Germany, but preferred the P.38 for practical reasons, much the same as American troops today sometimes express nostalgia for the "45" but have no problems with carrying and using the M9A1. Some of the HP models made during the war were sold to servicemen who wanted a gun that would be supported by unit armorers yet would be private property and could be retained after final victory - a victory that never came, of course. Jim

May 3, 2013, 08:19 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The cost comparison is interesting. In 1935, each P.08 cost the German military RM70. With mass production and some production shortcuts, the price in 1942 had fallen to RM45. But at the latter date, the P.38 was costing only RM32, enough of a saving to justify the decision to discontinue P.08 production and have Mauser tool up for P.38 production; little time was lost in the changeover, since Mauser was able to re-tool for P.38 production while still running its P.08 lines. Jim

May 3, 2013, 09:38 PM	#18
Super Sneaky Steve Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,250	Here's mine. It's pretty but isn't very accurate.

May 3, 2013, 10:43 PM	#19
towboat-er Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2011 Posts: 146	Mine is quite accurate. Love shooting this gun

May 3, 2013, 11:39 PM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"They lived in a communist dictatorship." What school did you go to that taught you that the Nazi were Communists? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 4, 2013, 07:29 AM	#21
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	As I understand it, it wasn't a matter of complexity, etc. that made the P-38 superior to the Luger as a SERVICE WEAPON -- it was the fact that the Luger was generations older, in terms of design and production, and that much hand-fitting was required. That was NOT the case with the P-38. Lugers were costly, and slow to make, and with a good bit of hand-fitting required during production. That hand-fitting was the problem, and it extended beyond production. In the field, you couldn't interchange all parts from the P-08 easily with other Lugers, where that was much less of a concern with the P-38. Lugers must have been an armorer's nightmares. If something broke, you couldn't just slap in a part from the bin; it had to be fit. (Our own 1911s didn't have that problem. I don't think it was as big a problem with the P-38s, either -- but have not read THAT in any sources.) Notice how nearly all of the parts on a Luger are serialized? That helps keep the parts together when detail stripped. If some of them are hand-fit, keeping parts together is time-saving for those difficult weapons. I've owned several Lugers and one P-38 (and have shot other P-38s), and I much preferred the Lugers for shooting and accuracy. But, I didn't have to use the P-08s in the field, in combat, etc. -- where they had a reputation for being hard to keep running right in dirty field conditions. Last edited by Walt Sherrill; May 4, 2013 at 07:35 AM.

May 4, 2013, 09:08 AM	#22
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	I have both, and vastly prefer the P-08 Luger. Mine is a 1941 Mauser, and it has been 100% reliable with all ammo that I have used. This includes bulk FMJ, JHP (yes it feeds all hollow point SD ammo perfectly), and my reloads including truncated cone. My Luger is more accurate than my P-38, and has a much better trigger. As German officers carried a pistol as a sign of rank, and ego, I am certain they preferred the Luger over the more commonly machined P-38. __________________ Pilot

May 4, 2013, 07:52 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"Lugers must have been an armorer's nightmares. If something broke, you couldn't just slap in a part from the bin; it had to be fit." Well, that is what is often said. But I have many times "slapped in" parts in Lugers and never had to fit any. By the Luger era, tooling, especially in Germany, was plenty good enough that fitting parts was not really required. As far as I can determine, the method of preliminary assembly and numbering parts for re-assembly after finishing was nothing more than a holdover from earlier times. It was done, not only for the P.08, but for the K.98k as well, and there is rarely a problem with "drop in" parts for the rifles. The practice of inspecting, stamping and serial numbering each part must have been a huge drag on production, and there does not seem to have been any reason for it, except that military contracts called for it. And why did the military require it? The best answer I could ever get was simple "because we had always done it that way". To the military mind, that is a good enough reason. Jim

May 5, 2013, 07:45 AM	#24
Pico Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2002 Location: Ga Posts: 515	BHP I always heard the German soldiers prized the Browning HP over both. When they took over Belgium, they had FNH /Browning make them with Wehrmacht markings. Correct me here but isn't the BHP the only handgun ever used in a war by both sides? Pico

May 5, 2013, 10:00 AM	#25
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	The Nazis were also using the Norwegian version of the M1911. A lot of guns supplied to U.S. "allies" in the '50s and '60s ended-up in the hands of various people that we had to shoot at, later. I'm sure G.I.s have faced ARs just about everywhere they've been since the mid-60s.