carry guns with lasers - Page 2

1stmar · December 11, 2012, 07:20 PM

LCP w Laserlyte sml. It's good for poor lighting, but I always practice with sites as well.

pete2 · December 11, 2012, 10:41 PM

Gimmick.

springer99 · December 11, 2012, 10:47 PM

1911 CS with CT grips. You bet, but practice using both irons and the laser. I find the Crimson Trace(front-actuated) grips second nature to turn on.

If I was still 25 and had great eyesight, I'd settle for good night sights but time does march on...... and things aren't what they used to be.

Koda94 · December 11, 2012, 10:57 PM

thanks for posting this thread, and the excellent replies. What little interest I had in lasers is now extinguished.

Colorado Redneck · December 11, 2012, 11:32 PM

The exact issue mentioned by Springer99 has got me interested in a laser sight for PD. Sight acquisition with iron sights is a struggle for me no matter how I have tried to deal with the issue. Bifocals just suck, and if I take'em off it is worse. The shooting club we belong too doesn't have rental guns with lasers. Ain't too interested in springing for $280 for CT grips for my SP101 without being pretty dang sure they would fit my needs. So Springer--do you like the lasers in daylight?

kcub · December 12, 2012, 05:17 AM

Quote:

I would never use a carry gun with a laser. For home defense fine. Think of how a DA is going to present that to a jury. The perception is to costly imo. If you need a laser to hit your target at SD ranges you need to practice more.

I disagree. If you are justified, you are justified. If you ain't you ain't. There is no way I could hit that possum on the move 3 times at night one handed with irons. Also for those worried about the felon using the laser to home in on you; muzzle flash will give your position away anyhow.

They shouldn't replace irons or even night sights but supplement them. If you expect to use it in daylight look into Viridian green lasers.

Smit · December 12, 2012, 05:53 AM

Not a fan of lasers on guns. Thought it was a neat idea until i watched someone use it at the range. That dot bounced around so much on target I was surprised he could even keep it on paper.

WC145 · December 12, 2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Not a fan of lasers on guns. Thought it was a neat idea until i watched someone use it at the range. That dot bounced around so much on target I was surprised he could even keep it on paper.

The problem there is the shooter, not the laser.

springer99 · December 12, 2012, 08:02 AM

"So Springer--do you like the lasers in daylight?"

Colorado - I've got a red laser which, depending on the backround, can be seen at over 20yds in daylight. I actually sighted my 1911 in using the laser during a sunny day on a 25yd line and could see it well enough for that. I actually don't rely on it during bright daylight though; that's what the old iron sights are for. My thinking is that the highest personal risk would likely come either at night or in subdued light, which is where I really can use the laser to best advantage.

I understand that the newer green lasers are better suited to daylight, but I haven't had a need to try them; I'm happy with the CT red for now.

Skadoosh · December 12, 2012, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Not a fan of lasers on guns. Thought it was a neat idea until i watched someone use it at the range. That dot bounced around so much on target I was surprised he could even keep it on paper.

He was using the laser incorrectly. A laser is only really useful for hip shooting where aligning the sights by eye is impossible and/or impractical. Extremely useful when one is fending off an attacker with one hand while drawing and shooting from the hip with the other.

45_auto · December 12, 2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Extremely useful when one is fending off an attacker with one hand while drawing and shooting from the hip with the other.

You really intend to waste time looking for a dot when your attacker is so close that you're using one hand to fend him off?

Get the money back you wasted on the laser and get some real training.

dayman · December 12, 2012, 09:08 AM

For me, night sight work better than lasers. I find that I'm pretty good at picking up a sight picture quickly, but when I shoot with a laser I need to consciously look for the dot.
I definitely agree that everyone should come up with some sort of a plan for low light - just for me night sights fill that role better than lasers.

One thing I will say about them is they make it very easy to diagnose trigger issues at the range. I also like having one on my night stand gun on the off chance my wife needs to use it.

jlove1974 · December 12, 2012, 09:11 AM

Or put a narrow focus weapon light on your rig and have something more useful than laser pointers and iridium sights

Gaerek · December 12, 2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

If I was still 25 and had great eyesight, I'd settle for good night sights but time does march on...... and things aren't what they used to be.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/i...sight-systems/

^^^ This

My mother-in-law has these on her G26. She doesn't have great eyesight, especially if she is caught without her contacts on, but she can pick up these sights without an issue, in daylight or darkness. I personally don't like them much (preference), but they are quick to pick up a sight picture, and that front sight is huge making it easy to see.

Quote:

I disagree. If you are justified, you are justified. If you ain't you ain't.

This is terrible advice. I agree that a laser is likely not going to be used against you in court, but the whole idea of "a clean shoot" is somewhat of a myth. I got a bit in trouble for getting into this idea a bit last week (I got a bit heated), but there are a bunch of little, seemingly innocent things that can be used against you, even if you are justified. I'd recommend two of Massad Ayoobs books (as he goes in depth into this subject), In the Gravest Extreme, and Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry. The Harold Fish case (I won't comment on this again past this, I promise) is an excellent case to show what can happen when you're up against a DA that wants another case on his belt, even if you were in a clean shoot.

Quote:

Extremely useful when one is fending off an attacker with one hand while drawing and shooting from the hip with the other.

So when you're at contact range, you're going to look for the red dot? If you're actively fending off an attacker, just point the muzzle at them and shoot. The laser is useless in this case. The only time a laser is useful is when you have to fire from a position where you can't use the sights, or shooting from the hip. And with practice, you can learn to point shoot which would preclude the use of a laser.

I still call a laser a gimmick. Give me good night sights for SD. Throw in a weapon light with those night sights for HD, and that's all anyone needs. By the way, a weapon light can be used pretty effectively like a laser. You just need to practice doing it, if you absolutely need that index point.

Quote:

One thing I will say about them is they make it very easy to diagnose trigger issues at the range.

I forgot about this use of them. Though I still wouldn't normally use a laser.

jason_iowa · December 12, 2012, 06:58 PM

"I disagree. If you are justified, you are justified. If you ain't you ain't."

Justified or not is decided by a judge or jury not the law. Perceptions matter. I carry a surefire flashlight in my left pants pocket to use. I would never attach it to my gun for carry purposes for the same reason I would never attach a laser to a carry weapon. It is something that can be used against you in court. We used IR and visible lasers in the Navy they can be useful. I find night sights to be fairly useless as well. Attach whatever you want to your home defense weapon. A shooting on a home intruder is vastly different to a shooting in public.

jimbob86 · December 12, 2012, 07:12 PM

IIRC, Jeff Cooper studied this problem 30 years ago when the laser sights first came out. After some testing, he found that it was not as fast as a standard presentation..... the shooter looked for the dot, then moved it to the target.

The best use he found for the laser sights was for his dog to chase the dot around the living room floor.....

My own thoughts on them: in a smoky/dusty environment, the laser becomes visible, drawing a line (and hostile fire) straight back to the user. I'll just use my tritium 3-dot system, thank you.

kcub · December 12, 2012, 08:30 PM

If I have to shoot somebody who is a threat in my home I don't care about any judge or DA or the jolly green giant. There is an urgent matter at stake and I want the best tool for the job. Period. The rest can be sorted out later only provided you win the fight and are still breathing.

Colorado Redneck · December 12, 2012, 10:58 PM

Thanks, Springer. For the lucky amongst us that still have decent eyes, trying to explain how it works for people like me is impossible. Bifocals provide a good look either down range (and the sights are fuzzy and difficult to pick up) or else if I hold my head right I can see the sights nicely but everything beyond 3 feet is fuzzy as hell. I used to make frequent PowerPoint presentations and always used a laser pointer to guide the viewers eyes to what was pertinent on the screen. Laser sights on a gun at the local gun shop feel like I could make shooting a hand gun a lot easier and more dependable. Maybe I can talk the gun store into letting me rent the revolver for a few rounds to see for myself.

springer99 · December 12, 2012, 11:43 PM

Colorado, if you can give them a try, one thing that you'll realize right away is that you can manage getting good shots off, even if the gun is held at waist level or to the side. No need to raise the gun to line up anything. I feel good about that; real good!

Gaerek · December 13, 2012, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcub

If I have to shoot somebody who is a threat in my home I don't care about any judge or DA or the jolly green giant. There is an urgent matter at stake and I want the best tool for the job. Period. The rest can be sorted out later only provided you win the fight and are still breathing.

You really need to think hard about this. Again I don't think a laser is going to affect you in court, but people have spent time in jail needlessly and spent theirs and their families savings trying to defend a justified shooting just because they did something that shouldn't even matter.

I'm not saying being dead is better than jail. But there are things you can do to make your court case as easy as possible to defend, without jeopardizing your ability to shoot.

The rule of thumb is, if you can explain why you did something, it's reasonable, and doesn't make an investigation difficult (like the use of reloads) then it should generally be considered OK.

Lasers are easy to defend. They're popular, many people use them, and manufacturers even put them on factory guns.

I still think they're a useless gimmick though. Learn to use you iron sights. Learn to point shoot. Learn to index with your front sight. Learn these skills and a laser becomes almost useless. When the lead starts flying, don't put your trust in something with batteries. They have a tendency to fail at the worst possible moment.

kcub · December 13, 2012, 05:57 AM

This may come as a complete surprise but I know what a sight is having used them for 40 years. I know how to use them well in the proper context. If I can see it I will use it. If I can't I won't; I'll use the laser. Is that unreasonable or somehow incomprehensible? If it is maybe you are thinking too hard about it. If you disagree or something else works better for you, I'm not preaching that you do anything otherwise.

WC145 · December 13, 2012, 08:37 AM

A lot of what I'm hearing from the laser sight naysayers is about "looking for the dot", you shouldn't be focusing on the dot, if you are you're doing it wrong. You should be using a laser like a red dot sight - look at the target and superimpose the dot on it - think of it as point shooting with a reference point you can see on the target. If you're doing it right, the laser won't replace your iron sights, it will compliment them.

Sparks1957 · December 13, 2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

You should be using a laser like a red dot sight - look at the target and superimpose the dot on it - think of it as point shooting with a reference point you can see on the target. If you're doing it right, the laser won't replace your iron sights, it will compliment them

I totally agree with the above statement. I've also learned more about trigger control by using lasers while dry-firing than by any other technique.

Gaerek · December 13, 2012, 10:04 AM

Use what works for you I guess?

The only point I'm trying to make is that there is really very few SD or HD situations where a laser will give you some advantage over a good set of night sights and a weapon light. But that same laser can (it doesn't have to) become a hinderance to where you're dependent on it. I have 20/20 vision at 31 (I know, I'm lucky, not trying to rub it in) so I can't comment on how a laser works for those with poor vision, except the little anecdote about my mother-in-law and her love of the XS Big Dot. But beyond that, the only time I thought they were cool was when I was in my middle school and high school years and watch movies where the SWAT team or whatever was using them.

If it works for you, then great. Just don't neglect your iron sights.

EDIT: I'm not commenting on the training usage of a laser. I have a cheap laser I use specifically for dry fire practice. Once I'm done, the laser comes off.

Nanuk · December 13, 2012, 02:24 PM

The US Border Patrol tested laser equipt handguns with the possibility of issuing every Agent one. What came out of the evaluation is that they added little if any practice use for most shooting situations. They actually slowed down shot times as agents looked for the dot, not every shooter every time, but enough to cause concern.

I agree with Gaerek, They do have a place in unconventional shooting positions, but so does proficiency. Technology is no replacement for skill.

December 11, 2012, 10:57 PM	#29
Koda94 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Cascadia Posts: 1,294	thanks for posting this thread, and the excellent replies. What little interest I had in lasers is now extinguished. __________________ lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

December 12, 2012, 05:53 AM	#32
Smit Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2012 Posts: 335	Not a fan of lasers on guns. Thought it was a neat idea until i watched someone use it at the range. That dot bounced around so much on target I was surprised he could even keep it on paper. __________________ "Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."

December 12, 2012, 09:08 AM	#37
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	For me, night sight work better than lasers. I find that I'm pretty good at picking up a sight picture quickly, but when I shoot with a laser I need to consciously look for the dot. I definitely agree that everyone should come up with some sort of a plan for low light - just for me night sights fill that role better than lasers. One thing I will say about them is they make it very easy to diagnose trigger issues at the range. I also like having one on my night stand gun on the off chance my wife needs to use it. __________________ si vis pacem para bellum

December 13, 2012, 08:37 AM	#47
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	A lot of what I'm hearing from the laser sight naysayers is about "looking for the dot", you shouldn't be focusing on the dot, if you are you're doing it wrong. You should be using a laser like a red dot sight - look at the target and superimpose the dot on it - think of it as point shooting with a reference point you can see on the target. If you're doing it right, the laser won't replace your iron sights, it will compliment them. __________________ "If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge or jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - LtCol Jeff Cooper

December 13, 2012, 02:24 PM	#50
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	The US Border Patrol tested laser equipt handguns with the possibility of issuing every Agent one. What came out of the evaluation is that they added little if any practice use for most shooting situations. They actually slowed down shot times as agents looked for the dot, not every shooter every time, but enough to cause concern. I agree with Gaerek, They do have a place in unconventional shooting positions, but so does proficiency. Technology is no replacement for skill. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

December 11, 2012, 07:20 PM	#26
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	LCP w Laserlyte sml. It's good for poor lighting, but I always practice with sites as well.

December 11, 2012, 10:41 PM	#27
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Gimmick.

December 11, 2012, 10:47 PM	#28
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	1911 CS with CT grips. You bet, but practice using both irons and the laser. I find the Crimson Trace(front-actuated) grips second nature to turn on. If I was still 25 and had great eyesight, I'd settle for good night sights but time does march on...... and things aren't what they used to be.

December 11, 2012, 11:32 PM	#30
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	The exact issue mentioned by Springer99 has got me interested in a laser sight for PD. Sight acquisition with iron sights is a struggle for me no matter how I have tried to deal with the issue. Bifocals just suck, and if I take'em off it is worse. The shooting club we belong too doesn't have rental guns with lasers. Ain't too interested in springing for $280 for CT grips for my SP101 without being pretty dang sure they would fit my needs. So Springer--do you like the lasers in daylight?

December 12, 2012, 08:02 AM	#34
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	"So Springer--do you like the lasers in daylight?" Colorado - I've got a red laser which, depending on the backround, can be seen at over 20yds in daylight. I actually sighted my 1911 in using the laser during a sunny day on a 25yd line and could see it well enough for that. I actually don't rely on it during bright daylight though; that's what the old iron sights are for. My thinking is that the highest personal risk would likely come either at night or in subdued light, which is where I really can use the laser to best advantage. I understand that the newer green lasers are better suited to daylight, but I haven't had a need to try them; I'm happy with the CT red for now.

December 12, 2012, 09:11 AM	#38
jlove1974 Member Join Date: August 3, 2009 Posts: 32	Or put a narrow focus weapon light on your rig and have something more useful than laser pointers and iridium sights

December 12, 2012, 06:58 PM	#40
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	"I disagree. If you are justified, you are justified. If you ain't you ain't." Justified or not is decided by a judge or jury not the law. Perceptions matter. I carry a surefire flashlight in my left pants pocket to use. I would never attach it to my gun for carry purposes for the same reason I would never attach a laser to a carry weapon. It is something that can be used against you in court. We used IR and visible lasers in the Navy they can be useful. I find night sights to be fairly useless as well. Attach whatever you want to your home defense weapon. A shooting on a home intruder is vastly different to a shooting in public.

December 12, 2012, 07:12 PM	#41
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	IIRC, Jeff Cooper studied this problem 30 years ago when the laser sights first came out. After some testing, he found that it was not as fast as a standard presentation..... the shooter looked for the dot, then moved it to the target. The best use he found for the laser sights was for his dog to chase the dot around the living room floor..... My own thoughts on them: in a smoky/dusty environment, the laser becomes visible, drawing a line (and hostile fire) straight back to the user. I'll just use my tritium 3-dot system, thank you.

December 12, 2012, 08:30 PM	#42
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	If I have to shoot somebody who is a threat in my home I don't care about any judge or DA or the jolly green giant. There is an urgent matter at stake and I want the best tool for the job. Period. The rest can be sorted out later only provided you win the fight and are still breathing.

December 12, 2012, 10:58 PM	#43
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Thanks, Springer. For the lucky amongst us that still have decent eyes, trying to explain how it works for people like me is impossible. Bifocals provide a good look either down range (and the sights are fuzzy and difficult to pick up) or else if I hold my head right I can see the sights nicely but everything beyond 3 feet is fuzzy as hell. I used to make frequent PowerPoint presentations and always used a laser pointer to guide the viewers eyes to what was pertinent on the screen. Laser sights on a gun at the local gun shop feel like I could make shooting a hand gun a lot easier and more dependable. Maybe I can talk the gun store into letting me rent the revolver for a few rounds to see for myself.

December 12, 2012, 11:43 PM	#44
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	Colorado, if you can give them a try, one thing that you'll realize right away is that you can manage getting good shots off, even if the gun is held at waist level or to the side. No need to raise the gun to line up anything. I feel good about that; real good!

December 13, 2012, 05:57 AM	#46
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	This may come as a complete surprise but I know what a sight is having used them for 40 years. I know how to use them well in the proper context. If I can see it I will use it. If I can't I won't; I'll use the laser. Is that unreasonable or somehow incomprehensible? If it is maybe you are thinking too hard about it. If you disagree or something else works better for you, I'm not preaching that you do anything otherwise.

December 13, 2012, 10:04 AM	#49
Gaerek Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 939	Use what works for you I guess? The only point I'm trying to make is that there is really very few SD or HD situations where a laser will give you some advantage over a good set of night sights and a weapon light. But that same laser can (it doesn't have to) become a hinderance to where you're dependent on it. I have 20/20 vision at 31 (I know, I'm lucky, not trying to rub it in) so I can't comment on how a laser works for those with poor vision, except the little anecdote about my mother-in-law and her love of the XS Big Dot. But beyond that, the only time I thought they were cool was when I was in my middle school and high school years and watch movies where the SWAT team or whatever was using them. If it works for you, then great. Just don't neglect your iron sights. EDIT: I'm not commenting on the training usage of a laser. I have a cheap laser I use specifically for dry fire practice. Once I'm done, the laser comes off.