Home Invasion/Robbery of Gunowner in Philly

Bartholomew Roberts · March 22, 2012, 11:53 PM

The following video shows the beginning of the robbery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuUNy...ature=youtu.be

The victim may have been a CHL who was carrying. He had set up camera surveillance in his driveway which caught the beginning of the robbery. The robbery startedas he and his wife pulled into the driveway. After he had turned the car off and exited the vehicle, six men came running up with at least one of them armed. The couple was forced inside the house and robbed, including taking the victim's handgun.

Considering that entering or exiting your home is a prime time for attack, I thought the video might offer some good discussion on how to reduce the chances ofthis type of attack as well as steps that might have been taken here. As the video shows, the CHL was looking down a gun barrel before he was even aware of the presence of the men, who hid their approach well. Once he recognized his problem, his shock delayed him enough that further resistance would have been extremely risky. Thoughts?

rha600 · March 23, 2012, 08:16 AM

This would not work for everyone, however if you have a home alarm system, MAKE SURE YOU ALWAYS SET IT.

If this were me they would have been caught. Upon entering the house the alarm would have sounded (beeped) and I'm pretty sure every home alarm system has a panic code. Instead of pushing your regular code which deactivates the alarm, you push the panic code which deactivates the alarm but ALSO alerts the monitor center. They do not all you, they immediately dispatch the police.

Now I don't live in philly, I'm in a much smaller town and have 4 police living within 10 houses of me so here they would arrive quick. In Philly...ok the criminals proabbly would have been home eating dinner and drinking a beer hours before the cops showed up, but that is one way to avoid it.

Oh, one other thing, keep the outside of your house well lit. It doesn't have to look like the runway at PHL but for example I have small plants in front with a couple of palms that are lit from underneath with 20w LED lights. I also have lights up the walkway and on the sides of the house, so it will be more difficult (not impossible) for someone to be hiding in my front yard waiting for me to pull up.

jrothWA · March 23, 2012, 09:13 AM

Placed where front porch lites up and possibly the drive.

C0untZer0 · March 23, 2012, 09:25 AM

The first thing I thought of was the whole business of x-amount of rounds being fired in the "average" gunfight and conflicts lasting n-amount of seconds.

In this case there were mulitple attackers, and there were reinforcements.

Maybe the only way to deal with this would have been for the guy to dive for cover behind the wheelwell of his car and immediately start firing on that first assailant - maybe that causes the others to hold back or even scatter.

I definately would feel uneasy having to engage that many assialants with a revolver or pocket-nine and no reload.

2damnold4this · March 23, 2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

The victim may have been a CHL who was carrying.

It would be nice to know if the victim was carrying or if the firearm was somewhere in the house.

Skadoosh · March 23, 2012, 09:58 AM

It is very likely that the homeowner literally drove right past the men who targeted and robbed him...unless they were waiting inside of a nearby home watching for him. This does not seem like a random event.

output · March 23, 2012, 10:03 AM

That is just a very bad situation. The victim was clearly in condition white. By the time he was able to process what was going on it was already too late to do anything but comply, especially since there were so many assailants and his wife was present and unarmed.

This shows exactly why we should always be aware of our surroundings and somewhat alert (even more so when entering and exiting a vehicle, residence, or any structure.)

I noticed that the attackers came from the same direction the homeowner took when he was driving home. That corner was blocked by a fence so I could not see if the attackers were just standing on the street or sitting in a car next to the curb. If there was a group of 6-7 guys standing on the street just a few yards away from his driveway that should have alerted him as he was driving past them to pull in his driveway. If he saw them he should have kept driving and called the police or even parked up the block and watched them for a little while before just pulling into his driveway.

I would also add a security mirror to that fence if the owner would allow it. That is a very bad blind spot. Every garage that faces a walkway or alleyway should have at least one security mirror so you can see if people are walking past, hiding out, etc...

rha600 · March 23, 2012, 10:19 AM

I'm not sure where you're from, but in Philly, there's always a group of someone standing on a street corner.

I mean it's a city so there are just tons of people, and seeing a group of guys/girls standing on a street would not raise an eye brow in most instances.

Out in the burbs sure, that's a different story.

Grant D · March 23, 2012, 10:23 AM

I live in the country, and when I arrive home at night it's already dark.I have a LCP in my pocket, and have a cocked and locked 45 in the console which I remove every night, so when I exit the vehicle it is in my hand.

BleedinPurple · March 23, 2012, 10:34 AM

unfortunately for the victim he really didnt have any time to do anything...its a scary world out there...pulling his gun could have just made things a lot worse, but since you never know the intentions of 6-7 guys coming at you it would have been a difficult decision

output · March 23, 2012, 10:44 AM

I grew up in one of the worse neighborhoods of Chicago. There were never 6-7 guys standing next to my driveway or anyone else’s driveway on a daily basis. If there were (and we did not know them) the police would have been called. If you live in a neighborhood and are not new to the area I would expect you to know what is and is not common for your own area. If the victim in this case was use to 6-7 people standing on the street next to his home then obviously my advice has a flaw.

Also, if I am not mistaken in June of 1992 the Chicago City Council passed a loitering ordinance that gave police officers exceptionally broad power to disperse any group of two or more people standing in public (if the police suspect that the group includes a gangmember.) Under that ordnances any person who did not promptly obey an order to disperse was/is subject to arrest and six months in prison. The law's language is deliberately expansive to allow the police to clean up the streets based on their suspicions of gang membership rather than waiting for a crime to take place.

Don’t most other large municipalities have similar ordinances?

Skadoosh · March 23, 2012, 10:51 AM

Quote:

I'm not sure where you're from, but in Philly, there's always a group of someone standing on a street corner.

I mean it's a city so there are just tons of people, and seeing a group of guys/girls standing on a street would not raise an eye brow in most instances.

I know that part of Philly very well. A group of six to men standing around always gets my attention...and its very likely that, as a resident, I would likely know or recognize at least one (if not all) of the men who regularly gather nearby my home.

rha600 · March 23, 2012, 10:58 AM

skadoosh where is it? I can't see it like I said above, I was thinking of areas around front street, maybe pats steaks area or even south street where there are always people just hanging out.

Friendly gatherings, which yes, you'd probably know the people, but still people just hanging out to where if you didn't really look to see who was there, you wouldn't think anything of it.

Bartholomew Roberts · March 23, 2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

It would be nice to know if the victim was carrying or if the firearm was somewhere in the house.

The video doesn't mention it (other than they stole his gun) but several comments at other websites have said that this victims in this video were an Asian couple who ran a beer distributor in West Philly and dealt in a lot of cash. According to them, the man WAS a CHL and was carrying at the time of the attack. However, since all I had was Internet hearsay, I edited my initial post.

Skadoosh · March 23, 2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

skadoosh where is it?

1400 block of McKinley...Frankford section of Philly, about two and a half miles from the Tacony Palmyra Bridge.

If anyone is like me who grew up in Philly, they would at least mindful/watchful of any large group of young men.

Patriot86 · March 23, 2012, 12:52 PM

I am not sure a Navy SEAL could stop 6 men rushing him like that. Lets face it, none of us are Rambo, even SEALS are not Rambo; 6 attackers against 1 is a very bad situation. Even if you single out the primary threats if they all blitz you odds are you can't neutralize all 6 before they would be in your face. I keep an eye open to everyone who is around me when coming home, do I know the car, do I know that person but sometimes you are just thrown into a no win situation. The guy is Alive, that is probably one of the best possible outcomes of this situation. The only way I see to even begin to see a possible "win" in that senario would be if both the man and his wife were highly trained, armed and alert. 6 on 2 is a let better than 6 on 1.

If anything, this incident could make the case for allowing your average joe to buy/own/carry a compact fully automatic weapon like an MP7 or H&K MP5K.

Skadoosh · March 23, 2012, 12:59 PM

If you've seen my profile details, it will come as no surprise that I would bet on the SEAL.

rha600 · March 23, 2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

1400 block of McKinley...Frankford section of Philly, about two and a half miles from the Tacony Palmyra Bridge.

If anyone is like me who grew up in Philly, they would at least mindful/watchful of any large group of young men.

eh, know it, but not all too well. But yeah, that's not in the "city" that's on the outskirts more so yeah I know what you mean. And I don't know if that area is good on either side of the bridge. although I haven't been up there in a while so it may have changed.

**Frank Ettin** · March 23, 2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriot86

...If anything, this incident could make the case for allowing your average joe to buy/own/carry a compact fully automatic weapon like an MP7 or H&K MP5K.

How would being able to quickly and indiscriminately spray a lot of bullets around a residential area be a good thing in this kind of situation?

Don't bother to try to answer. It was a rhetorical question. And let's stick to serious discussion.

2damnold4this · March 23, 2012, 02:52 PM

It looks like the attackers came into view one at a time with only the first brandishing a firearm. I suspect that if the victim was armed and had stepped behind his car and drawn, he might have had a chance at driving them away. He also might have started a gun fight that he would lose.

He wouldn't have a good way to know if more attackers were coming from the opposite direction without taking his attention off the robbers coming from around the fence.

His wife might have had a chance to dial for help if she had a phone handy and was aware of the situation.

dayman · March 23, 2012, 04:28 PM

It didn't look to me like there would have been a whole lot he could have done in that time frame. It's probably going to end badly if you try to draw on someone who has the drop on you - particularly when there's a group of them and at that range. We can be as careful as we want, but determined attackers will always have the advantage of surprise. The biggest take away for me was that I'm glad I live somewhere with more open space. I'm just glad that both he and his wife lived through it.

Hiker 1 · March 23, 2012, 05:01 PM

The attackers were actually pretty slow in getting to the victim. They're all spaced out several feet apart. The initial attacker didn't really come charging and there was a lot of room between him and the victim.

This is armchair QB'ing (I am openly admitting this), but had the victim been carrying, he did have time to move and fire on the first attacker.

Skadoosh · March 23, 2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

he did have time to move and fire on the first attacker

I agree. He was caught off guard and in condition white.

Verbal Clint · March 25, 2012, 11:12 PM

As rha said, most alarms come with a "hostage code" (as ADT calls theirs). It is different than your regular alarm code and LEO is notified there is a hostage situation at your address.

As for the self-defense aspect of this situation, it really depends for me. How many rounds do I have at my disposal vs how many assailants, how skilled do they appear, how many have already drawn their weapons, and are my kids with me? If my kids are there, I'm not trying to be a hero heavily out-gunned, because all it takes is one shot. If my wife is there, I'd probably be much more aggressive because of the chance that they would take her when it's over.

IMO, its probably going to be mindless street thugs that dont make decisions based on sound judgement, so if you remain somewhat calm, you have that on your side. FIRST AND FOREMOST, don't get out of the car if it's not safe. Assuming I assessed the situation before it got ugly and had a plan, I would get into the house as quickly as possible, using my weapon for cover. Once you're in the house, you won 95% of the battle.

Hiker 1 · March 26, 2012, 04:16 PM

IMO, its probably going to be mindless street thugs that dont make decisions based on sound judgement, so if you remain somewhat calm, you have that on your side.

I agree. There guys were hardly a squad of al Qaeda. I bet if the victim could have started firing, he likely would have broken up the whole attack. Alas, he didn't.

March 22, 2012, 11:53 PM	#1
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Home Invasion/Robbery of Gunowner in Philly The following video shows the beginning of the robbery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuUNy...ature=youtu.be The victim may have been a CHL who was carrying. He had set up camera surveillance in his driveway which caught the beginning of the robbery. The robbery startedas he and his wife pulled into the driveway. After he had turned the car off and exited the vehicle, six men came running up with at least one of them armed. The couple was forced inside the house and robbed, including taking the victim's handgun. Considering that entering or exiting your home is a prime time for attack, I thought the video might offer some good discussion on how to reduce the chances ofthis type of attack as well as steps that might have been taken here. As the video shows, the CHL was looking down a gun barrel before he was even aware of the presence of the men, who hid their approach well. Once he recognized his problem, his shock delayed him enough that further resistance would have been extremely risky. Thoughts? Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; March 23, 2012 at 12:03 AM.

March 23, 2012, 09:13 AM	#3
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Good case for motion deceting lights! Placed where front porch lites up and possibly the drive.

March 23, 2012, 09:58 AM	#6
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	It is very likely that the homeowner literally drove right past the men who targeted and robbed him...unless they were waiting inside of a nearby home watching for him. This does not seem like a random event. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

March 23, 2012, 10:03 AM	#7
output Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2008 Posts: 294	That is just a very bad situation. The victim was clearly in condition white. By the time he was able to process what was going on it was already too late to do anything but comply, especially since there were so many assailants and his wife was present and unarmed. This shows exactly why we should always be aware of our surroundings and somewhat alert (even more so when entering and exiting a vehicle, residence, or any structure.) I noticed that the attackers came from the same direction the homeowner took when he was driving home. That corner was blocked by a fence so I could not see if the attackers were just standing on the street or sitting in a car next to the curb. If there was a group of 6-7 guys standing on the street just a few yards away from his driveway that should have alerted him as he was driving past them to pull in his driveway. If he saw them he should have kept driving and called the police or even parked up the block and watched them for a little while before just pulling into his driveway. I would also add a security mirror to that fence if the owner would allow it. That is a very bad blind spot. Every garage that faces a walkway or alleyway should have at least one security mirror so you can see if people are walking past, hiding out, etc... __________________ "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill

March 23, 2012, 10:44 AM	#11
output Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2008 Posts: 294	I grew up in one of the worse neighborhoods of Chicago. There were never 6-7 guys standing next to my driveway or anyone else’s driveway on a daily basis. If there were (and we did not know them) the police would have been called. If you live in a neighborhood and are not new to the area I would expect you to know what is and is not common for your own area. If the victim in this case was use to 6-7 people standing on the street next to his home then obviously my advice has a flaw. Also, if I am not mistaken in June of 1992 the Chicago City Council passed a loitering ordinance that gave police officers exceptionally broad power to disperse any group of two or more people standing in public (if the police suspect that the group includes a gangmember.) Under that ordnances any person who did not promptly obey an order to disperse was/is subject to arrest and six months in prison. The law's language is deliberately expansive to allow the police to clean up the streets based on their suspicions of gang membership rather than waiting for a crime to take place. Don’t most other large municipalities have similar ordinances? __________________ "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill

March 23, 2012, 08:16 AM	#2
rha600 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2006 Posts: 338	This would not work for everyone, however if you have a home alarm system, MAKE SURE YOU ALWAYS SET IT. If this were me they would have been caught. Upon entering the house the alarm would have sounded (beeped) and I'm pretty sure every home alarm system has a panic code. Instead of pushing your regular code which deactivates the alarm, you push the panic code which deactivates the alarm but ALSO alerts the monitor center. They do not all you, they immediately dispatch the police. Now I don't live in philly, I'm in a much smaller town and have 4 police living within 10 houses of me so here they would arrive quick. In Philly...ok the criminals proabbly would have been home eating dinner and drinking a beer hours before the cops showed up, but that is one way to avoid it. Oh, one other thing, keep the outside of your house well lit. It doesn't have to look like the runway at PHL but for example I have small plants in front with a couple of palms that are lit from underneath with 20w LED lights. I also have lights up the walkway and on the sides of the house, so it will be more difficult (not impossible) for someone to be hiding in my front yard waiting for me to pull up.

March 23, 2012, 09:25 AM	#4
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The first thing I thought of was the whole business of x-amount of rounds being fired in the "average" gunfight and conflicts lasting n-amount of seconds. In this case there were mulitple attackers, and there were reinforcements. Maybe the only way to deal with this would have been for the guy to dive for cover behind the wheelwell of his car and immediately start firing on that first assailant - maybe that causes the others to hold back or even scatter. I definately would feel uneasy having to engage that many assialants with a revolver or pocket-nine and no reload.

March 23, 2012, 10:19 AM	#8
rha600 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2006 Posts: 338	I'm not sure where you're from, but in Philly, there's always a group of someone standing on a street corner. I mean it's a city so there are just tons of people, and seeing a group of guys/girls standing on a street would not raise an eye brow in most instances. Out in the burbs sure, that's a different story.

March 23, 2012, 10:23 AM	#9
Grant D Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2011 Location: Brazos County, Texas Posts: 1,038	I live in the country, and when I arrive home at night it's already dark.I have a LCP in my pocket, and have a cocked and locked 45 in the console which I remove every night, so when I exit the vehicle it is in my hand.

March 23, 2012, 10:34 AM	#10
BleedinPurple Member Join Date: January 17, 2012 Location: Maryland Posts: 91	unfortunately for the victim he really didnt have any time to do anything...its a scary world out there...pulling his gun could have just made things a lot worse, but since you never know the intentions of 6-7 guys coming at you it would have been a difficult decision

March 23, 2012, 10:58 AM	#13
rha600 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2006 Posts: 338	skadoosh where is it? I can't see it like I said above, I was thinking of areas around front street, maybe pats steaks area or even south street where there are always people just hanging out. Friendly gatherings, which yes, you'd probably know the people, but still people just hanging out to where if you didn't really look to see who was there, you wouldn't think anything of it.

March 23, 2012, 12:52 PM	#16
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	I am not sure a Navy SEAL could stop 6 men rushing him like that. Lets face it, none of us are Rambo, even SEALS are not Rambo; 6 attackers against 1 is a very bad situation. Even if you single out the primary threats if they all blitz you odds are you can't neutralize all 6 before they would be in your face. I keep an eye open to everyone who is around me when coming home, do I know the car, do I know that person but sometimes you are just thrown into a no win situation. The guy is Alive, that is probably one of the best possible outcomes of this situation. The only way I see to even begin to see a possible "win" in that senario would be if both the man and his wife were highly trained, armed and alert. 6 on 2 is a let better than 6 on 1. If anything, this incident could make the case for allowing your average joe to buy/own/carry a compact fully automatic weapon like an MP7 or H&K MP5K.

March 23, 2012, 12:59 PM	#17
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	If you've seen my profile details, it will come as no surprise that I would bet on the SEAL. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

March 23, 2012, 02:52 PM	#20
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	It looks like the attackers came into view one at a time with only the first brandishing a firearm. I suspect that if the victim was armed and had stepped behind his car and drawn, he might have had a chance at driving them away. He also might have started a gun fight that he would lose. He wouldn't have a good way to know if more attackers were coming from the opposite direction without taking his attention off the robbers coming from around the fence. His wife might have had a chance to dial for help if she had a phone handy and was aware of the situation.

March 23, 2012, 04:28 PM	#21
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	bad situation. It didn't look to me like there would have been a whole lot he could have done in that time frame. It's probably going to end badly if you try to draw on someone who has the drop on you - particularly when there's a group of them and at that range. We can be as careful as we want, but determined attackers will always have the advantage of surprise. The biggest take away for me was that I'm glad I live somewhere with more open space. I'm just glad that both he and his wife lived through it.

March 23, 2012, 05:01 PM	#22
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	The attackers were actually pretty slow in getting to the victim. They're all spaced out several feet apart. The initial attacker didn't really come charging and there was a lot of room between him and the victim. This is armchair QB'ing (I am openly admitting this), but had the victim been carrying, he did have time to move and fire on the first attacker.

March 25, 2012, 11:12 PM	#24
Verbal Clint Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 69	As rha said, most alarms come with a "hostage code" (as ADT calls theirs). It is different than your regular alarm code and LEO is notified there is a hostage situation at your address. As for the self-defense aspect of this situation, it really depends for me. How many rounds do I have at my disposal vs how many assailants, how skilled do they appear, how many have already drawn their weapons, and are my kids with me? If my kids are there, I'm not trying to be a hero heavily out-gunned, because all it takes is one shot. If my wife is there, I'd probably be much more aggressive because of the chance that they would take her when it's over. IMO, its probably going to be mindless street thugs that dont make decisions based on sound judgement, so if you remain somewhat calm, you have that on your side. FIRST AND FOREMOST, don't get out of the car if it's not safe. Assuming I assessed the situation before it got ugly and had a plan, I would get into the house as quickly as possible, using my weapon for cover. Once you're in the house, you won 95% of the battle. __________________ Luke 11:21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe."

March 26, 2012, 04:16 PM	#25
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	IMO, its probably going to be mindless street thugs that dont make decisions based on sound judgement, so if you remain somewhat calm, you have that on your side. I agree. There guys were hardly a squad of al Qaeda. I bet if the victim could have started firing, he likely would have broken up the whole attack. Alas, he didn't.

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