Uberti 45 Colt with Schofield Brass

merbeau · July 18, 2018, 06:23 PM

I have been experimenting with using 45 Schofield brass in my Uberti 45 Colt open top reproduction revolver. The gunsmith from Uberti supplier suggested I use a soft lead bullet and reduced loads to keep pressures low.

I am using my RCBS 45 Colt die to resize the Schofield brass and a separate cast bullet seating die. I am using Dardas 255 gr. LSWC.

Using a Hyskore rest a greatgroup from Unique at 5.3 grains at 25 yards was produced . Fig 1.

Upon completion of firing the brass does not just fall out like regular 45 brass from the cylinder but the ramrod has to be used. Is this due to the slightly larger rim size of the brass?

Thanks

Rober

Jakeway · July 18, 2018, 09:59 PM

Hey, I just reloaded 50 rounds with Schofield brass (Starline) to use in my Uberti Cattleman. I haven't fired them yet, but they reloaded easy with my Lee 45 Colt dies, but I had to use a Lyman M neck expander die because the Lee expander was too long to touch the Schofield brass.

The three loads I tried were 5.3 g Unique with a 250 gr RNFP, 4.5 and 5.0 g Titegroup with a 200 gr RNFP. I'll let you know what accuracy I get when I get a chance to shoot them (hopefully in a few days). Keep me posted on what you find with yours.

Also , what diameter bullet do you use? I've been using a .452, but I'm thinking of trying .454. The .452 won't drop through the throat of my cylinder, but it doesn;t take much pressure with a pencil to push them through.

merbeau · July 19, 2018, 08:19 AM

Jakeaway

I tried Hodgdon 800x, Vihtavuori N320 and Alliant Unique. Trail Boss would be another but that I do not have it in my powder cabinet. The Unique load at 5.3 gr gave the best result. See attachment from my post. I am using 0.452 diameter bullets and have not seen any leading problems after shooting 60 test rounds. When I drop a cast bullet into a chamber on the cylinder the tip barely sticks out which is a rule of thumb the diameter is pretty good.

reddog81 · July 19, 2018, 09:24 AM

Does the Schofield brass take more pressure to insert into the chamber due to the larger rim? If not, I can't see how it would effect removing the brass from the chamber.

merbeau · July 19, 2018, 07:52 PM

Reddog81

The brass loads into the chamber without any difficulty. The larger rim may be become slightly wedged in the ejector star after firing (only a guess on my part).

**Aguila Blanca** · July 19, 2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merbeau

The brass loads into the chamber without any difficulty. The larger rim may be become slightly wedged in the ejector star after firing (only a guess on my part).

I don't think an Uberti replica of a Colt open top has en ejector star. But the larger rim may be a slight interference fit on the cylinder ratchet.

merbeau · July 20, 2018, 09:09 AM

Oops you right. There is a cylinder ratchet but there is no star.

**Unclenick** · July 20, 2018, 10:40 AM

Merbeau,

Drawings I find show the Schofield rim at 0.510" maximum, which is 0.002" smaller than 45 Colt has (0.512"). Rim thickness and body diameters are the same. So if you measure your Schofield rims as wider than your Colt rims, that is probably just manufacturing tolerance difference, which allows them to be -0.006" smaller than those maximums. The gun should be made to handle the Colt maximum value.

If the cases load without friction they should eject without friction if the load pressures are normal. QuickLOAD gives pressure for your load at around 7,000 psi using maximum COL and you are below the 5.7-grain Unique minimum I interpolate from Lyman's 200 and 250-grain SWC loads for this cartridge. When the pressure is too low, the case does not expand to seal the chamber and you can get not only sooty cases but unburned grains of powder blown into the resulting gap between the case and chamber, wedging the case in place. In this instance, raise your charge weight until the symptoms go away.

If you want the light, lower velocity loads, the best solution is to go to a faster powder so you can get the same velocity but with a higher peak pressure that will better seal the case against the chamber. Hodgdon Clays comes to mind. Clays should give you close to 10,000 psi at the same velocity which would be close with Hodgdon's starting load of 4.0 grains of Clays (so these will be cheaper to shoot, too). Clays also produced better pressure and velocity consistency in Hodgdon's tests than any of their other powders did in this cartridge. See if it doesn't clear up the problem. A chronograph will tell you where an exact velocity match occurs. At these low pressures, there should be no harm in judging the load by chronograph rather than by peak pressure. You never want to go above a maximum load judging by chronograph though, since, as in this case, different powders will achieve a given velocity with a different combination of peak and muzzle pressure, so velocity does not tell you the peak pressure value, which is what safety concerns center around.

The Clays load should burn cleaner than the Unique and because the muzzle pressure will be lower, you should get still less recoil and less bullet base disturbance at muzzle exit, so accuracy may be even better. That will take experimentation to determine, though.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 20, 2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Drawings I find show the Schofield rim at 0.510" maximum, which is 0.002" smaller than 45 Colt has (0.512"). Rim thickness and body diameters are the same. So if you measure your Schofield rims as wider than your Colt rims, that is probably just manufacturing tolerance difference, which allows them to be -0.006" smaller than those maximums. The gun should be made to handle the Colt maximum value.

Unfortunately, SAAMI doesn't have an official case drawing for .45 Schofield. Nonetheless, it has been widely documented that, historically, the .45 Schofield had larger rims than the .45 Colt in order to better engage the extractor star in the S&W Schofield revolvers. The ever-reliable Wikipedia says the rim diameter for .45 Schofield is .522 inches. I'll try to remember to measure my new Starline .45 Schofield brass this evening.

**44 AMP** · July 20, 2018, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, SAAMI doesn't have an official case drawing for .45 Schofield.

Nor would it matter much, if they did.

Cartridges of the World (barnes) also list .45 Schofield as .522" rim diameter.

No idea who says .510"...

Sometimes, everything is just fine, and the ejector rod needs to be used. That's why its there.

Possibly the case rims are touching the cylinder ratchet boss. Easy enough to look and see. If they come out without noticeable resistance to the ejector rod's push, its all good. Pointing the muzzle UP helps...

**Unclenick** · July 20, 2018, 03:50 PM

I got that number from the CIP drawing, since SAAMI doesn't have one. Usually, they just copy our drawings to the nearest 0.01 mm when the origin of the cartridge is the U.S.A. That's strange. I see Starline makes their Schofield 0.010 bigger than 45 Colt. CIP gives 12.95 mm, but .522 would be 13.26 mm, rounding to the nearest 0.010 mm. I'll have to let them know about the discrepancy if they don't already. I wonder what odd bit of history caused it?

Bottom line is the same, though, if the cartridges go in fitting OK they should come out OK with normal pressure.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 20, 2018, 04:08 PM

New, unfired Starline .45 Schofield rim measures 0.519 at the rim.

I wonder if Starline shaves the rim a bit so that their brass can be used in 1873 SAA cylinders as well as in Schofield replicas.

merbeau · July 20, 2018, 05:02 PM

I checked a loaded round in the cylinder and the rim does touch the ratchet boss. After firing lifting the muzzle up does help in removing the brass. I can not remove the brass with placing a finger nail on the rim and pulling but using the ejection rod it comes out quite easily.

By the way I also have a break open top Uberti in 45 Colt and it does not eject the case without a significant snap. The 45 Schofield brass comes out without much effort at all.

merbeau · July 20, 2018, 05:10 PM

Thank you for the work up with quick load. The Lyman Cast manual lists Unique from 5.8 to 6.5 whereas Hornady lists from 4.6 to 5.5. So Hornady's maximum load is lower than the starting load for Lyman and thus my starting the loads from 4.9 to 5.3 gr Unique.

I do see soot on the sides of the case but I have seen that on regular 45 Colt brass. Trimming the brass square with my case trimmer has helped keeping the soot down.

On my next trip to the supply store I will see if they have any Clays powder
and give that a try.

I probably am over cautious with this open top revolver but without a top strap it sure looks weak.

mehavey · July 20, 2018, 07:19 PM

Here's what you want/functions perfectly in the #3 Uberti:

(Actual Velocity = 713fps/Oehler)

**Unclenick** · July 20, 2018, 09:18 PM

Red Dot is another fast powder. I looked at the Clays because I could get pressure data for it. It is cleaner than Red Dot, IME, if that matters to the shooter.

Merbeau,

If the rim is touching the ratchet boss, it could be the brass offsets itself slightly during firing. Watch for cases that insert more easily one way than the other.

If you know someone with a lathe, taking a few thousandths of a rim is easy. Ideally, you use a collet, but you can also turn a piece of scrap to a rubbing-slip-fit into the case to back it, wrap a piece of shim stock around it to protect the surface, then chuck it up and turn it.

**44 AMP** · July 21, 2018, 12:44 AM

Quote:

New, unfired Starline .45 Schofield rim measures 0.519 at the rim.

I wonder if Starline shaves the rim a bit so that their brass can be used in 1873 SAA cylinders as well as in Schofield replicas.

I guess you could say "shaves the rim" but I don't think they do it the way that phrase implies. I could be wrong, but I doubt that they make it full .522" and then shave some off...

It is quite common to measure loaded ammo and unfired cases and find them a thousandth or two less than the (max) spec in the drawings.

This is intentional, so that the ammo will fit and work in guns that are less than max spec dimensions. This also allows for a round that is slightly "oversize" (compared to the rest of the production run) to still be within tolerances to fit, and work.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 21, 2018, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I guess you could say "shaves the rim" but I don't think they do it the way that phrase implies. I could be wrong, but I doubt that they make it full .522" and then shave some off...

I did phrase that rather poorly, didn't I? I don't think they make the brass to a .522" diameter and then turn down each piece. But I do think they've revised the rim diameter spec on their brass to make them at .519, probably to better clear the ratchet on SAA cylinders.

merbeau · July 21, 2018, 08:22 AM

Great conversation and contribution from all commentators - I certainly have learned a lot.

I started the experiment with Schofield brass because of wanting to use my Colt brass in a Henry rifle I have in 45 Colt. Since I do not have a lathe or access to one milling the ratchet does not seem doable unless I take the firearm to a gunsmith.

It looks like some further testing with Clays and Red Dot are in order. I use Dardas Cast bullets and his 255 LSWC is the from the Lyman 452424 die listed in the 4th Ed. Lyman Cast Handbook. In that handbook maximum load for Red Dot is 5.0 grains.

**Unclenick** · July 21, 2018, 12:46 PM

Merbeau,

I don't mean to complicate your life, but it is also possible to lap the rim recesses open by sacrificing some cases to serve as the laps. You just don't want to mess it up, so if you have no previous experience making things fit by lapping, you want to consult someone who has.

It sounds, from the snug fit, like you are only looking at taking off maybe 0.001" to get a slip fit, and that would actually be pretty easy to do. It could be done slowly and carefully with fine silicone carbide abrasive. I'd try 320 or 400 grit to start and then polished with progressively finer grades.

AB,

Cartridge dimensions are always given as maximums with a minus tolerance. The diameter tolerance for the .45 Colt is -0.006". If the Schofield dimension is given as 0.010" over the .45 Colt dimensions, as Starline states it, then 0.522" is the maximum and 0.516" is the minimum and 0.519" falls right in the middle of the range and is probably the dimension targetted by Starline toolmakers, who have to allow for brass spring-back and slug mass tolerances and other factors, so that any error in that diameter in either direction stays well within that range. So no shaving of the finished product would be required to get the reported 0.519".

Jakeway · July 22, 2018, 01:36 PM

I know I had to buy a larger shell holder (Lee #14) for the Schofield, because they were too wide to fit in my Lee #11 45 Colt shell holder.

July 20, 2018, 10:40 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Merbeau, Drawings I find show the Schofield rim at 0.510" maximum, which is 0.002" smaller than 45 Colt has (0.512"). Rim thickness and body diameters are the same. So if you measure your Schofield rims as wider than your Colt rims, that is probably just manufacturing tolerance difference, which allows them to be -0.006" smaller than those maximums. The gun should be made to handle the Colt maximum value. If the cases load without friction they should eject without friction if the load pressures are normal. QuickLOAD gives pressure for your load at around 7,000 psi using maximum COL and you are below the 5.7-grain Unique minimum I interpolate from Lyman's 200 and 250-grain SWC loads for this cartridge. When the pressure is too low, the case does not expand to seal the chamber and you can get not only sooty cases but unburned grains of powder blown into the resulting gap between the case and chamber, wedging the case in place. In this instance, raise your charge weight until the symptoms go away. If you want the light, lower velocity loads, the best solution is to go to a faster powder so you can get the same velocity but with a higher peak pressure that will better seal the case against the chamber. Hodgdon Clays comes to mind. Clays should give you close to 10,000 psi at the same velocity which would be close with Hodgdon's starting load of 4.0 grains of Clays (so these will be cheaper to shoot, too). Clays also produced better pressure and velocity consistency in Hodgdon's tests than any of their other powders did in this cartridge. See if it doesn't clear up the problem. A chronograph will tell you where an exact velocity match occurs. At these low pressures, there should be no harm in judging the load by chronograph rather than by peak pressure. You never want to go above a maximum load judging by chronograph though, since, as in this case, different powders will achieve a given velocity with a different combination of peak and muzzle pressure, so velocity does not tell you the peak pressure value, which is what safety concerns center around. The Clays load should burn cleaner than the Unique and because the muzzle pressure will be lower, you should get still less recoil and less bullet base disturbance at muzzle exit, so accuracy may be even better. That will take experimentation to determine, though. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 20, 2018, 05:02 PM	#13
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Loaded round I checked a loaded round in the cylinder and the rim does touch the ratchet boss. After firing lifting the muzzle up does help in removing the brass. I can not remove the brass with placing a finger nail on the rim and pulling but using the ejection rod it comes out quite easily. By the way I also have a break open top Uberti in 45 Colt and it does not eject the case without a significant snap. The 45 Schofield brass comes out without much effort at all. Last edited by merbeau; July 20, 2018 at 05:18 PM. Reason: added text

July 20, 2018, 07:19 PM	#15
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	Here's what you want/functions perfectly in the #3 Uberti: (Actual Velocity = 713fps/Oehler) Last edited by mehavey; July 20, 2018 at 07:50 PM.

July 20, 2018, 09:18 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Red Dot is another fast powder. I looked at the Clays because I could get pressure data for it. It is cleaner than Red Dot, IME, if that matters to the shooter. Merbeau, If the rim is touching the ratchet boss, it could be the brass offsets itself slightly during firing. Watch for cases that insert more easily one way than the other. If you know someone with a lathe, taking a few thousandths of a rim is easy. Ideally, you use a collet, but you can also turn a piece of scrap to a rubbing-slip-fit into the case to back it, wrap a piece of shim stock around it to protect the surface, then chuck it up and turn it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 21, 2018, 12:46 PM	#20
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Merbeau, I don't mean to complicate your life, but it is also possible to lap the rim recesses open by sacrificing some cases to serve as the laps. You just don't want to mess it up, so if you have no previous experience making things fit by lapping, you want to consult someone who has. It sounds, from the snug fit, like you are only looking at taking off maybe 0.001" to get a slip fit, and that would actually be pretty easy to do. It could be done slowly and carefully with fine silicone carbide abrasive. I'd try 320 or 400 grit to start and then polished with progressively finer grades. AB, Cartridge dimensions are always given as maximums with a minus tolerance. The diameter tolerance for the .45 Colt is -0.006". If the Schofield dimension is given as 0.010" over the .45 Colt dimensions, as Starline states it, then 0.522" is the maximum and 0.516" is the minimum and 0.519" falls right in the middle of the range and is probably the dimension targetted by Starline toolmakers, who have to allow for brass spring-back and slug mass tolerances and other factors, so that any error in that diameter in either direction stays well within that range. So no shaving of the finished product would be required to get the reported 0.519". __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 18, 2018, 09:59 PM	#2
Jakeway Member Join Date: October 12, 2017 Location: Near Nashville, TN Posts: 62	Hey, I just reloaded 50 rounds with Schofield brass (Starline) to use in my Uberti Cattleman. I haven't fired them yet, but they reloaded easy with my Lee 45 Colt dies, but I had to use a Lyman M neck expander die because the Lee expander was too long to touch the Schofield brass. The three loads I tried were 5.3 g Unique with a 250 gr RNFP, 4.5 and 5.0 g Titegroup with a 200 gr RNFP. I'll let you know what accuracy I get when I get a chance to shoot them (hopefully in a few days). Keep me posted on what you find with yours. Also , what diameter bullet do you use? I've been using a .452, but I'm thinking of trying .454. The .452 won't drop through the throat of my cylinder, but it doesn;t take much pressure with a pencil to push them through.

July 19, 2018, 08:19 AM	#3
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Jakeaway I tried Hodgdon 800x, Vihtavuori N320 and Alliant Unique. Trail Boss would be another but that I do not have it in my powder cabinet. The Unique load at 5.3 gr gave the best result. See attachment from my post. I am using 0.452 diameter bullets and have not seen any leading problems after shooting 60 test rounds. When I drop a cast bullet into a chamber on the cylinder the tip barely sticks out which is a rule of thumb the diameter is pretty good.

July 19, 2018, 09:24 AM	#4
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Does the Schofield brass take more pressure to insert into the chamber due to the larger rim? If not, I can't see how it would effect removing the brass from the chamber.

July 19, 2018, 07:52 PM	#5
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Reddog81 The brass loads into the chamber without any difficulty. The larger rim may be become slightly wedged in the ejector star after firing (only a guess on my part).

July 20, 2018, 09:09 AM	#7
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Oops you right. There is a cylinder ratchet but there is no star.

July 20, 2018, 03:50 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I got that number from the CIP drawing, since SAAMI doesn't have one. Usually, they just copy our drawings to the nearest 0.01 mm when the origin of the cartridge is the U.S.A. That's strange. I see Starline makes their Schofield 0.010 bigger than 45 Colt. CIP gives 12.95 mm, but .522 would be 13.26 mm, rounding to the nearest 0.010 mm. I'll have to let them know about the discrepancy if they don't already. I wonder what odd bit of history caused it? Bottom line is the same, though, if the cartridges go in fitting OK they should come out OK with normal pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 20, 2018, 04:08 PM	#12
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,460	New, unfired Starline .45 Schofield rim measures 0.519 at the rim. I wonder if Starline shaves the rim a bit so that their brass can be used in 1873 SAA cylinders as well as in Schofield replicas.

July 20, 2018, 05:10 PM	#14
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Powder Selection Thank you for the work up with quick load. The Lyman Cast manual lists Unique from 5.8 to 6.5 whereas Hornady lists from 4.6 to 5.5. So Hornady's maximum load is lower than the starting load for Lyman and thus my starting the loads from 4.9 to 5.3 gr Unique. I do see soot on the sides of the case but I have seen that on regular 45 Colt brass. Trimming the brass square with my case trimmer has helped keeping the soot down. On my next trip to the supply store I will see if they have any Clays powder and give that a try. I probably am over cautious with this open top revolver but without a top strap it sure looks weak. Last edited by merbeau; July 20, 2018 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Spelling

July 21, 2018, 08:22 AM	#19
merbeau Member Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 55	Great conversation and contribution from all commentators - I certainly have learned a lot. I started the experiment with Schofield brass because of wanting to use my Colt brass in a Henry rifle I have in 45 Colt. Since I do not have a lathe or access to one milling the ratchet does not seem doable unless I take the firearm to a gunsmith. It looks like some further testing with Clays and Red Dot are in order. I use Dardas Cast bullets and his 255 LSWC is the from the Lyman 452424 die listed in the 4th Ed. Lyman Cast Handbook. In that handbook maximum load for Red Dot is 5.0 grains.

July 22, 2018, 01:36 PM	#21
Jakeway Member Join Date: October 12, 2017 Location: Near Nashville, TN Posts: 62	I know I had to buy a larger shell holder (Lee #14) for the Schofield, because they were too wide to fit in my Lee #11 45 Colt shell holder.