|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
July 7, 2018, 10:46 AM | #1 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
Federal changing their primers
Federal's new lead-free Catalyst primer design is being phased in over the next five years. They think it is actually better technology than lead styphnate. They must have tested it pretty thoroughly, as the military is accepting it and so it must be stable enough to meet the 45-year stockpiling spec and its extreme temperature specs. Also, Federal wouldn't want to put its match ammunition reputation at risk.
My immediate reaction is to wonder if the sensitivity is still a match to the basic lead styphnate primers they use. Federal has been a go-to for guns with weak springs because of its sensitivity. I'm also curious how the primer residue will compare to the current primers and whether or not they changed flash hole sizes to accommodate it, or if the compatibility is 100%. I'm going to email them to ask.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 7, 2018, 11:10 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
if someone can get hold of some a side by side test similar to this on is in order
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html any clue when they will be on the shelf ? A quick chrono test will tell the tale. I have found Federal 205's and CCI 400/450's both give me the more consistent SD's and lower ES numbers than Remington 7 1/2's so I can always fall back on CCI if the new Feds suck
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
July 7, 2018, 11:26 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,827
|
It is a good news indeed. Lead styphnate primer residue is my number one concern whenever I am doing anything firearms related. 5 years is perfect, so that I can use up current cache. Thanks for the info. I will be waiting with credit card.
There were, maybe still are, lead-free primers from Russia. No good. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk |
July 7, 2018, 12:28 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
|
The sensitivity of Federal primers, with more reliable detonation in race guns, I understand is due to a softer or thinner cup rather than chemistry.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter. |
July 7, 2018, 02:25 PM | #5 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
Back in the late 80's someone did a survey and found that most slamfires on the Service Rifle Match firing line occurred with Federal primers, crediting this to Federal's greater sensitivity. But Federal responded that their primers were no more sensitive than anyone else's and that the reason most slamfires involved Federal primers is that most match shooters reload with them.
Assuming Federal was accurate in their statement, this suggests that on an H-test, Federal primers have the same mean ignition energy threshold most primers do, which, in turn, suggests to me it isn't the cups. You would get higher apparent sensitivity if the basic lead styphnate has a sharper threshold knee than normal lead styphnate so that you don't get as many randomly harder-to-ignite primers. But I don't know. It's just speculation. I've thought of building an H-tester. It's not hard and would be interesting to play with. Houndawg, The only clue is that broad 5-year time frame.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 8, 2018, 02:45 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 960
|
Interesting.
One thing that article was 100% right about the general ignorance about what makes up a primer. I am wondering, will this be a proprietary product or will the chemistry be obvious and available to the other manufacturers? IMO, it'a a bigger deal if it would be available for all. |
July 8, 2018, 02:53 PM | #7 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
I don't think they share exact formulations intentionally (note that a key element is the moisture-immune mix of sensitizer and fuel and binders, and that isn't spelled out) and they may have applied for a patent, but I don't know. But you can bet other manufacturers will be working on competitive components.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 8, 2018, 03:02 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
Being that I own revolvers with limber springs and short actions, I have no doubt Federals are more sensitive, whether soft cups or basic styphnate.
Should I get a lifetime supply of Real Federals? |
July 8, 2018, 03:07 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 3, 2016
Location: Outside of New Orleans, LA.
Posts: 313
|
New Primers Dove-tailing with LPP for .45acp vs SPP for .45acp
I just recently got a few .45acp casings with SPP instead of LPP as I am used to and have only reloaded in the past. I assume these new primers mentioned above are the "green" SPP.
I had a question here. All things being equal, loading SPP for larger calibers is recommended to load as usual with same load-data for LPP. Is slower or faster powder better suited for this use? (Make sense?) I found 50 casings with SPP pockets so loaded 25 with 'Autocomp' (slowest powder I had on hand). And 25 with "Titegroup" fastest powder on hand. Any opinions as to how to deal with the SPP casings? Would slower powder or faster be better in those larger cases? Or does it matter? Just curious.
__________________
- Robert |
July 8, 2018, 03:08 PM | #10 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
Jim,
Well, Federal primers sure fail to fire a lot less often than anyone else's, whether it's due to greater mean sensitivity or a narrower sensitivity bell curve. Let's see if we can get more information about when the changeover is scheduled? On the one hand, primers don't go bad very easily, so there would seem to be no drawback to buying ahead. On the other hand, what if it turns out the new ones are actually better and produce even more reliable ignition and tighter groups? Then you're stuck with a lot of inferior primers. But then, if you have the precision you want and know you can get it with the old primers, then a bird in the hand… Robhic, They aren't necessarily green primer cases. It started out that way, but even for standard primers they often use small pistol primers now just so they don't need to produce two sets of case designs. We've had some board members report on comparing them in .45 Auto and finding basically no really significant performance difference with the same powder charge. Try it for yourself and see. Personally, I've not bought any of the SPP cased ammo and am sticking with LPP 45 Auto just to avoid jamming the loading equipment up.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 8, 2018, 03:23 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
Small primer .45 Auto was orinially made with the "hot" and expensive Dinol lead free primers. I think some lines are getting small styphnate primers for manufacturing convenience.
Wonder which the new stuff will get. I tried different powders with small versus large primers and saw 25 to 40 fps drops. If that mattered, a small Magnum primer or a fraction of a grain more powder would get it back. Some say it has made no difference but I wonder if they were chronographing. |
July 8, 2018, 03:29 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
When Winchester changed to unplated cups, sensitivity improved, presumably due to softer plain brass cups. They were ALMOST reliable in my Colt Custom Tedford action Python. Yet the CAS loaders were complaining of misfires.
|
July 8, 2018, 04:30 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 3, 2016
Location: Outside of New Orleans, LA.
Posts: 313
|
Quote:
I will only bring and shoot one or the other at a time. Separate containers and individual use at the range (or elsewhere). I'll no longer fear the SPP cases!
__________________
- Robert |
|
July 8, 2018, 08:37 PM | #14 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
The only exception would be if you owned a 1911 fit up old school so the center of the chamber was high enough off the firing pin tunnel centerline that it might strike too near the edge of a small primer to ignite it reliably.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 9, 2018, 11:09 AM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 1,442
|
Quote:
Don
__________________
NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor |
|
July 10, 2018, 12:27 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,624
|
Quote:
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
|
July 10, 2018, 05:21 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,756
|
As I have four (absolutely inspiring...) purpose built PPC revolvers that will give a 40-60% MALF rate if I feed them anythimg other than the classic Federal 100, I will also be buying often and stacking them deep.
Basically, I posted here to subscribe. Thank you as always, Gentlemen.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss. |
July 10, 2018, 05:37 PM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 3, 2016
Location: Outside of New Orleans, LA.
Posts: 313
|
Quote:
They fired without issue and, actually, a little hotter than I expected so close to minimum. Not a lot, but more than I'd require for paper-punching. Looks like SPP causes no difference in loading and as long as I keep them scrupulously separated I think I'll have no future issues.
__________________
- Robert |
|
July 10, 2018, 05:57 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,768
|
Changing primer mix
I'm concerned that abandoning the traditional reliable lead mixture may cause problems with ammunition reliability long term. We know militaries sell off old ammo and buy fresh ammo. But how good are these lead free primed rounds going to be in 50 or 60 years? We know mercury primers from WWI are still good today and lead primers from WWII have proven to be equally durable long term. Only time will tell if the new mix has the long term stability we desire. I don't want ammo with an expiration date even if the government does. rc
|
July 11, 2018, 08:06 AM | #20 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
The military uses 45 years as the stockpile limit for single-base powders and the ammunition loaded with it. Since accelerated aging (heat to 140°F and let sit for about 18 months to equal 20 years) has been done (this and other military lead-free conversion development testing has bee going on for some time) and the military has accepted them, I think 45 years is now a minimum bet on longevity. Like powder, they will actually last longer a good portion of the time.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 12, 2018, 11:12 AM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: February 9, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 53
|
My understanding is that the variation of lead styphnate Federal uses is more impact sensitive than the variation used by other primer manufacturers. The molecular structure is slightly different. It's so long ago that I saw the molecule drawings I forget their source.
|
July 12, 2018, 12:12 PM | #22 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,063
|
These are to be lead-free, so it won't be that sensitizer.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
July 13, 2018, 08:26 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2015
Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain.
Posts: 1,774
|
I am NOT a chicken little but any loss of toxicity while maintaining reliability is a plus in my book.
__________________
Just shoot the damn thing. |
July 13, 2018, 11:06 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,634
|
|
July 14, 2018, 09:55 AM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|