pocket pistol accuracy

[K_Mac]

I prefer Predictive Particles to Strings..

A Theoretical Physics reference. Nice!

[mavracer]

with practice and familiarity

Yep if you really focus on the fundamentals sight picture and trigger control
Little guns can shoot pretty good this is 25 yards shot at a brisk pace.
URL=http://s266.photobucket.com/user/mavracer/media/lcptarget_zps9d95f9e5.jpg.html][/URL]

[armoredman]

We went from Jerry Miculek is a cyborg to String Theory all in one thread. Now THAT'S impressive thread drift!
As for micro guns - my last one was about 20 years ago, could never shoot it straight with inky dinky grips. Even the grips on the wife's CZ 2075 RAMi are too short for me. Now if I shoot the RAMI BD with the 14 round extended magazine, it becomes MUCH more shootable, and I will throw out I did hit a 1/2 scale IDPA steel target at 100 yards with it. Once. I didn't try again.
I am old fat married and ugly so I don't care what I look like off duty, and dress around the gun. My version of a pocket pistol is a CZ SP-01 Phantom or a CZ P-09, carried in high quality gear. Now maybe I'll get a chance to play with a CZ P-10C to see how well that one works, but the itty bitty mouse guns and pocket rockets, I just absolutely am terrible with, and yes, it's all me, not the belly guns fault.
Now one belly gun I would LOVE to try and would probably love isn't in this section...an Avenging Angel.

[tipoc]

Sig P238 and Walther PPK/S both in .380 at about 8 yards with various ammo.



At 8 yards. Gun could have done much better, poor shooter.



At 8 yards Ruger LC9 in 9mm as the name implies above and Colt Defender in 45 acp below. I like the Defender. The LC9 I sold, I could never get any good with it.



M640 15 rounds at 15 yards.



8 yards rapid fire 158 gr. +P LSWCHP Remington



10 yards, 20 rounds aimed fire 115 gr. Fed. jhp S&W Shield. A favorite.



tipoc

[armoredman]

I'll say it - nice....

[camsdaddy]

My work wardrobe requires my shirt to be tucked. I am in a non airconditioned shop so sweat is real. I am currently carrying my 43 in a smartcarry. As the temp rises I will be looking for a pocket firearm. I carry my 43 because it's been 100% reliable and its accurate from contact to 25+ yards. I find the 43 would be fine for pocket if I could find a holster that would keep the grip from printing I would have a practical accurate pocket gun I shoot as well as its bigger breatheren. I want as much accuracy as I can get because if I find myself in a situation I won't get to choose the details

[armoredman]

The other thing to remember is you sweat below the waistline too - I pocket carried a PPK for one day in AZ summer weather working in the warehouse and the body side was nice and rusty. There is a cheap fabric pocket holster, cannot remember the name for the life of me, and it was excellent, perfect for pocket carry...for about $20.

[fourbore]

I agree that grips and holding matter a LOT with these little guns.

I was shooting a PPK/S in 380 at 15 yards. I some how managed a 1.2 inch 5 shot group off a rest. That hit about 9 inches high. After some ammo experiments trying to bring down the point of impact and odd results, I tried an experiment.

Using a white knuckle grip of death, I was able to put two shots touching each other almost center on the 3" red spot. Same ammo. I was not able to maintain that grip and the group fell apart spreading out and about 4 inch higher. This gun is really in motion before the bullet leaves the barrel. And smooth plastic grips make it harder to deal with.

The gun is a fixed barrel blow back design and maybe accurate but it kicks out of proportion for a 380.

[PlatinumCore16]

Fourbore, I hear you on the kick. The girlfriend decided she wanted a Bersa 380 because it fit her best, but it really does have a lot of kick for a tiny pistol. The blowback action on those guys (Bersa 380 is a ppk clone) really puts the gun into the web of your hand. She just talked it off that it was her first time shooting it and I didn't argue. Hopefully it doesn't continue to bother her because she felt really comfortable with the pistol and with some more range time I can see her getting very accurate with it.

As far as accuracy in my own carry pistol (PT709), when I slow down I can almost put rounds touching at 7yds. I ordered some grip extensions and they'll be in next week. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how I do with them, but I already have a feeling I know the outcome. Either way it's more about trigger control and consistency than the grip length, but having that pinky resting on something rather than sitting under the mag is going to be much nicer.

[keithdog]

Yesterday, I took my first pocket gun, my LCPII .380 to the range to shoot for the first time. It was my first time shooting a .380 caliber pistol. I was shooting the target at 15 feet. That's what I consider a self defense range and truer to what the gun was designed for. I went through 100 rounds with various ammo without a hiccup. After getting the feel for the gun, the final 80 rounds all grouped in at about 3 inches. I was happy with that.

[Bill DeShivs]

What the gun was designed for is to shoot from a small package.
How far you shoot with it is up to you.
If you have to shoot at 30 feet, can you do it? You don't get to decide what "self defense range" is.

[Individualist]

I have an old Kahr K9 which I can shoot quite well. I recently bought and fired a Kahr PM9, and my initial results are depressing. I do know these results were a combination of my own relatively low skill level and the built-in design compromises of the gun, but it still sucks.

[Rangerrich99]

This thread got me to wondering, so the other day I took my LCP to the range to see if I could shoot for accuracy without warming up first. So these groups were both shot at 10 yards, no warm up, from my stock LCP. Slow, aimed fire. I believe the circles are 3 inch diameter.

First mag:
https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...a1&oe=59BA4E17
The flier to the right was the first shot; it's been awhile since I tried to shoot for accuracy with my Elsie P.
Second mag:
https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...f2&oe=59BA0F3E

Anyway, not going to win any awards, but it does prove to me that that little gun will shoot accurately, provided I do my part.

[Average Joe]

I don't care if my pocket pistol is accurate or not, Its for up close and personal , not going to win any matches with it. My only concern is its functionality and reliability.

[Bill DeShivs]

"I don't care if my pocket pistol is accurate or not, Its for up close and personal , not going to win any matches with it. My only concern is its functionality and reliability."

This thought process really puzzles me. As I have said many times before, if you are going to carry a pistol, why not learn to use it to it's fullest potential?
After all, you may have to shoot further than you plan. Is it laziness? Is it that people just don't believe small guns can be accurate? Is it a perception that the shooter can't learn to shoot accurately at distance?

I think it's all of the above.

[gglass]

AverageJoe: I don't care if my pocket pistol is accurate or not, Its for up close and personal , not going to win any matches with it. My only concern is its functionality and reliability.

I don't think that anyone on this forum would argue your points about functionality and reliability of a carry gun. I have to ask, if you are the one who will determine the distance of some future self-defense scenario, or will the situation determine it for you?


PS. I liked how Todd Green (deceased) from pistol-training.com used to demonstrate a 75-yard shot on a small steel plate, with an LCP, for his students to show them, that it is the shooter and not the gun that limits accuracy.

[keithdog]

No amount of arguing will ever convince me that any manufacturer's pistol with a 2.75 inch barrel is intended to bring down a BG at 75 yards. Is it possible? Of course. But that does not mean it is designed to be "accurate" at 75 yards. Maybe Hickcok45 can do it, but realistically, most of us probably can't. A gun like that is intended to be an up close self defense weapon. Just as a VW Beetle isn't intended to be able to tow a 30 foot cabin cruiser.

[Individualist]

Seems to me what is being discussed is absolute accuracy vs. practical accuracy.

Absolute accuracy would be what is attainable under controlled conditions, either with a very highly-skilled shooter or a testing apparatus. Practical accuracy will vary depending on the user.

I know that Jerry Miculek would be able to shoot 50 rounds at 50 yards through my PM9 and make one hole, but I'll never be able to shoot like Miculek. Yes, I can improve, but I will always have higher practical accuracy with my Glock 17 than I do with my Kahr PM9.

So there's a grain of truth to the statement that it's the shooter and not the gun, but in practical terms, it's how they work together that really matters.

I'd say the bottom line is that if you've put in as much training as you're willing and able, and still can't shoot it well, find something you can do better with. Being told that Miculek could take out a gnat from a mile with that same gun isn't really helpful at that point.

[PlatinumCore16]

Individual I would argue that it is ALL about the shooter. What pistol has been produced in recent memory that was SOO inaccurate that people didn't use it/it got removed from the market?

Just as a VW Beetle isn't intended to be able to tow a 30 foot cabin cruiser.

I'll show you: http://wheelsaddicts.com/wp-content/...eel-Camper.jpg

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[mavracer]

No amount of arguing will ever convince me that any manufacturer's pistol with a 2.75 inch barrel is intended to bring down a BG at 75 yards

You probably right, but why then are all these 2-3" barreled guns rifled seems that's a terrible waste of time and money if you only intend the thing to be accurate at 10 feet.

[gglass]

mavracer,
You probably right, but why then are all these 2-3" barreled guns rifled seems that's a terrible waste of time and money if you only intend the thing to be accurate at 10 feet.

Ouch!

[keithdog]

So what I am hearing is that barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with a guns accuracy? My point was that in the vast majority of self defense shootings, I'm guessing 99%, the BG is going to be within 5-10 feet, maybe 15 feet at most. So that is what I practice for most of the time. Yes, I do also practice longer range as well. But I still believe guns are manufactured with an intended purpose. And I don't believe a small gun like an LCP is meant to be used to bring down a BG at 75 feet. And yes, rifling in even a 2.75 inch barrel will help with accuracy.

[mavracer]

So what I am hearing is that barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with a guns accuracy?

As long as it imparts enough velocity and spin to the bullet to maintain stability the length of barrel will have little to no effect on accuracy and in some cases IE 200 yard benchrest shorter barrels are prefered.

My point was that in the vast majority of self defense shootings, I'm guessing 99%, the BG is going to be within 5-10 feet, maybe 15 feet at most. So that is what I practice for most of the time.

If you practice for the average gunfight you're only going to have the skill level to survive about 1/2 of the time.

And I don't believe a small gun like an LCP is meant to be used to bring down a BG at 75 feet.

A LCP is meant to be small and concealable Ruger doesn't put limits on range you do unfortunately the BG gets to decide on the shot you need to make.

And yes, rifling in even a 2.75 inch barrel will help with accuracy.

Yes sure at longer range not so much at 10 feet.
Used to have a instructor at the local range that had a M10 smith with the barrel removed just to prove this exact point. He could routinely put 6 rounds in a fist size group at 5 yards.

[K_Mac]

If you practice for the average gunfight you're only going to have the skill level to survive about 1/2 of the time.

Mavracer that explains the need to train for the unexpected better and more succinctly than I've ever seen it. Well said!

[Individualist]

Individual I would argue that it is ALL about the shooter. What pistol has been produced in recent memory that was SOO inaccurate that people didn't use it/it got removed from the market?

I understand and agree with you. I just meant that most shooters will perform better with a full-size handgun as opposed to a downsized one. The fact that I shoot my K9 better than I do my PM9 is a case in point. Yes, I can improve, but the gun is a variable that affects the results as well. That's all.