Illegal to have NFA firearm at range without paperwork?

cptsplashdown · November 28, 2009, 09:40 PM

Made this post in the NFA forum, but thought legal minds might have a better shot at answering this one for me:

I was at the Markham Park shooting range today in South Florida. I was shooting an MP-5SD (RDTS conversion) and after shooting it for some time was approached by a range officer who asked if I had my NFA paperwork. I said I did not. He told me I was violating federal law and that any police officer who asked me for my paperwork would arrest me on the spot. He told me I had to pack up and leave the range, which I did. I did not think this was correct, but I have had trouble finding any appropriate legal references to this issue. I know there are a lot of opinions out there, but I was hoping someone could give me a specific reference in the law that I could refer to in the case that this happens again. On the other hand, if the range officer was correct, I suppose I would like to know that as well. Anyone?

cptsplashdown · November 28, 2009, 09:43 PM

Just to be clear, I do have the paperwork, the weapon is a registered SBR and Suppressor, and all the appropriate taxes have been paid. This is a semi, not full auto HK-94 conversion, and I am just wondering whether or not I have to have the BATF paperwork with me at all times, or is it okay for me to leave it safe at home without worrying about getting arrested?

**44 AMP** · November 28, 2009, 10:09 PM

But it would seem to me, that you would have to be able to produce the paperwork on demand of any LEO. Considering you have to show them your car registration, license and proof of insurance when asked, I think they would be just a little more concerned with NFA items, don't you?

Expecting a LEO to just take your word for the fact that your items are legal is more than just a stretch. Getting arrested, having to go to court, and the hassle of getting your property returned (and in what condition, after how long?) isn't remotely worth the trouble.

Make a copy (make several) of all your paperwork (you could even get them notarised), and carry them with you whenever you leave the house with your NFA items. You can leave the originals home in the safe, for safe keeping, but have a valid copy on you when you have the item in public.

Machine guns and silencers are not common items (except on TV), so don't expect ordinary LEOs to know all the details of the law covering them. "Everybody" knows they are "illegal", and without the Federal (and maybe state?) paperwork, you are in deep doo doo, until you get out on bail, to get your paperwork.

Also consider that run ins with the law (even when you are exonerated, eventually) can get you an "undesirable" reputation, which could affect any future purchases you might consider. Have you papers with you, show them when asked, its just the best policy.

cptsplashdown · November 28, 2009, 10:21 PM

Yeah, I just don't agree with that take on it. My limited understanding is that the tax stamp that you pay on the weapon makes the paperwork a tax document subject to relevant privacy laws. The fact is that I do expect a LEO to know the law (I know, what a strange concept,) and the fact is that a police officer cannot ask you for your license or registration or anything else for that matter without something called probable cause, or a warrant, or after having watched you commit a crime. So does a LEO or anyone else (RSO) have a right to ask me for this documentation simply because I am in possession of an NFA weapon. Me thinks not, but that is why I asked. Using this thought process, any police officer could stop you and ask for your ID and vehicle registration simply because you own a car, which is not the case. I appreciate that everyone has an opinion, but I would really like to know what the LAW says.

**Bud Helms** · November 28, 2009, 10:40 PM

cptsplashdown, blanketing the board with multiple postings of the same discussion is a spamming technique we don't permit on TFL.

Pick your forum for posting your discussion, make sure it's on topic for that forum and stick with it. If you think it's not getting the response you need, contact a moderator and we can move it for you to a better venue.

This discussion is ongoing here in the NFA Guns and Gear forum.

This discussion is a duplicate and is closed.

November 28, 2009, 09:40 PM	#1
cptsplashdown Member Join Date: November 28, 2009 Location: Miami Beach Posts: 35	Illegal to have NFA firearm at range without paperwork? Made this post in the NFA forum, but thought legal minds might have a better shot at answering this one for me: I was at the Markham Park shooting range today in South Florida. I was shooting an MP-5SD (RDTS conversion) and after shooting it for some time was approached by a range officer who asked if I had my NFA paperwork. I said I did not. He told me I was violating federal law and that any police officer who asked me for my paperwork would arrest me on the spot. He told me I had to pack up and leave the range, which I did. I did not think this was correct, but I have had trouble finding any appropriate legal references to this issue. I know there are a lot of opinions out there, but I was hoping someone could give me a specific reference in the law that I could refer to in the case that this happens again. On the other hand, if the range officer was correct, I suppose I would like to know that as well. Anyone?

November 28, 2009, 10:09 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Don't have a reference to cite, sorry... But it would seem to me, that you would have to be able to produce the paperwork on demand of any LEO. Considering you have to show them your car registration, license and proof of insurance when asked, I think they would be just a little more concerned with NFA items, don't you? Expecting a LEO to just take your word for the fact that your items are legal is more than just a stretch. Getting arrested, having to go to court, and the hassle of getting your property returned (and in what condition, after how long?) isn't remotely worth the trouble. Make a copy (make several) of all your paperwork (you could even get them notarised), and carry them with you whenever you leave the house with your NFA items. You can leave the originals home in the safe, for safe keeping, but have a valid copy on you when you have the item in public. Machine guns and silencers are not common items (except on TV), so don't expect ordinary LEOs to know all the details of the law covering them. "Everybody" knows they are "illegal", and without the Federal (and maybe state?) paperwork, you are in deep doo doo, until you get out on bail, to get your paperwork. Also consider that run ins with the law (even when you are exonerated, eventually) can get you an "undesirable" reputation, which could affect any future purchases you might consider. Have you papers with you, show them when asked, its just the best policy. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 28, 2009, 09:43 PM	#2
cptsplashdown Member Join Date: November 28, 2009 Location: Miami Beach Posts: 35	Just to be clear, I do have the paperwork, the weapon is a registered SBR and Suppressor, and all the appropriate taxes have been paid. This is a semi, not full auto HK-94 conversion, and I am just wondering whether or not I have to have the BATF paperwork with me at all times, or is it okay for me to leave it safe at home without worrying about getting arrested?

November 28, 2009, 10:21 PM	#4
cptsplashdown Member Join Date: November 28, 2009 Location: Miami Beach Posts: 35	Yeah, I just don't agree with that take on it. My limited understanding is that the tax stamp that you pay on the weapon makes the paperwork a tax document subject to relevant privacy laws. The fact is that I do expect a LEO to know the law (I know, what a strange concept,) and the fact is that a police officer cannot ask you for your license or registration or anything else for that matter without something called probable cause, or a warrant, or after having watched you commit a crime. So does a LEO or anyone else (RSO) have a right to ask me for this documentation simply because I am in possession of an NFA weapon. Me thinks not, but that is why I asked. Using this thought process, any police officer could stop you and ask for your ID and vehicle registration simply because you own a car, which is not the case. I appreciate that everyone has an opinion, but I would really like to know what the LAW says.

November 28, 2009, 10:40 PM	#5
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	cptsplashdown, blanketing the board with multiple postings of the same discussion is a spamming technique we don't permit on TFL. Pick your forum for posting your discussion, make sure it's on topic for that forum and stick with it. If you think it's not getting the response you need, contact a moderator and we can move it for you to a better venue. This discussion is ongoing here in the NFA Guns and Gear forum. This discussion is a duplicate and is closed.