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June 10, 2019, 04:05 PM | #101 | ||
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Which is factually what happened. Quote:
http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Repor..._1972-2014.pdf The use of firearms in violent crime has steadily declined. https://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun...s/welcome.aspx So, there is no "increase in guns due to easy access". Crime has declined as has the overall use of guns to commit crimes. |
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June 10, 2019, 04:10 PM | #102 | |
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What? Are you claiming that criminals no longer use knives? |
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June 10, 2019, 04:13 PM | #103 | |
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June 10, 2019, 04:15 PM | #104 |
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I'm not sure the number of violent crimes committed using a knife is much lower than it once was means criminals have concluded knives are ineffective either physiologically or psychologically. I think it means guns offer more options and are readily available due to lack of enforcement of the many laws prohibiting criminals from possessing firearms. That is another conversation though.
Anyone who dismisses the serious threat of a bladed weapon is either a very skilled man or woman with ninja-like powers, or doesn't understand the threat in my opinion. Even superbly trained martial artists understand that a knife in the hand of someone who knows how to use one is a dangerous thing.
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June 10, 2019, 04:18 PM | #105 |
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Just a simple question for davidsog:
Are you claiming that criminals no longer use knives in armed robberies? |
June 10, 2019, 04:23 PM | #106 |
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While the percentage of the populace that owns guns has declined, the number of guns owned by those that do own them has increased. The number of guns being produced and purchased in this country has been increasing for some time.
https://beta.washingtonpost.com/news...outputType=amp https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-133m-firearms As for the percentage of those used in crimes, that I am not commenting on with this. My point is simply the supply of firearms in the US has certainly increased. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk |
June 10, 2019, 04:38 PM | #107 |
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Gangs and Gun-Related Homicide
Gun-related homicide is most prevalent among gangs and during the commission of felony crimes. In 1980, the percentage of homicides caused by firearms during arguments was about the same as from gang involvement (about 70 percent), but by 1993, nearly all gang-related homicides involved guns (95 percent), whereas the percentage of gun homicides related to arguments remained relatively constant. The percentage of gang-related homicides caused by guns fell slightly to 92 percent in 2008, but the percentage of homicides caused by firearms during the commission of a felony rose from about 60 percent to about 74 percent from 1980 to 2005.[5] Davidsog the above is from the same .Gov site you use to make the case that guns use in violent crimes is down.
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June 10, 2019, 05:16 PM | #108 | ||
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That statistic would be found in the table I posed as: Quote:
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June 10, 2019, 05:29 PM | #109 |
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Here is some of the base data used to compile that table.
This compares 2009 to 2010. What is interesting is the number of robberies involving knives is the lowest of all weapons used to commit robbery. 26,707 knives used by criminals to intimidate their victims into compliance compared to 147,510 firearms! Interestingly enough, strong arm robbery equals firearm robbery for all practical purposes. 147,510 firearms compared to 142,628 criminals using the threat of unarmed combat to gain compliance. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...es/10tbl15.xls Certainly does not look like some trend to use the great psychological power of the knife. |
June 10, 2019, 06:33 PM | #110 |
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What I like about surveys...... Who tells the truth?
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June 10, 2019, 06:35 PM | #111 |
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Davidsog I don't think your numbers really address the intimidation quotient of a blade. Guns are easily available, and the weapon of choice for most of us. That includes the gang banger, the career violent offender, the punk looking to take something that doesn't belong to him, and the armed citizen looking to defend himself from all of the above.
I don't think knives are popular with thugs because they require that one get in close to be either intimidating or effective. That does not mean the aren't both. I almost always carry a folding knife in addition to a handgun. I don't know if an old fat guy with a knife would intimidate a determined attacker. If it comes to that, the time for intimidation and posturing is over.
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June 10, 2019, 06:36 PM | #112 | |
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Interestingly enough, strong arm robbery equals firearm robbery for all practical purposes. 147,510 firearms compared to 142,628 criminals using the threat of unarmed combat to gain compliance. |
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June 10, 2019, 07:42 PM | #113 |
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From Davidsog's link to the UCR tables we can see some interesting trends.
Robberies with guns spiked up from the 1980s to the early 1990s. It's certainly true that violent crime in general has dropped since the 1990s and that knife robberies have dropped more than gun robberies. It's interesting to see that knife assaults seem to be on par with gun assaults while guns are about six times more likely than a knife to be used in a robbery. While violent crime, including gun robberies seem to be dropping, criminals are showing more of a preference for guns than they are knives. when it comes to robbery This could be for several reasons. 1) Criminals could be more concerned that they will encounter armed resistance than they were in the past. They don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight. 2) With crime in general dropping, it could be that the hard core criminals who are disposed to rob people are better armed than criminals were in the past. 3) Criminals could be less concerned about being caught with a gun than they were in the past. In any case, it's clear that criminals prefer a gun over a knife for a robbery tool in most circumstances. That doesn't mean that a knife isn't psychologically intimidating or that the intimidation goes away when it is presented. |
June 10, 2019, 08:27 PM | #114 | |
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That certainly does not bode well for any case that knives are highly thought of as a tool of gaining victim compliance. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...es/10tbl15.xls |
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June 10, 2019, 11:42 PM | #115 | |||||||
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The discussion is about HOW they are used, not about how OFTEN they are used. Quote:
2. The facts quoted do not show anything about how useful knives are for gaining compliance. You can assume that because they are being used less that they are less useful for gaining compliance, but it's just an assumption. There have been no facts presented indicating WHY knife use as declined or what the compliance level in armed robberies involving knives is as compared to the compliance level in armed robberies when other weapons are used. Quote:
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We can say factually that knife use in armed robberies has declined. We can not say factually WHY it has declined. And even if we could, we would still be arguing about a red herring, because your initial claim was that: "2. If an attacker wielding a knife shows you the knife for "psychological" effect........ He does not know how to use a knife. " Then you followed it up with comments about how best to perpetrate lethal attacks with a knife in spite of the fact that most armed robberies are not about perpetrating lethal attacks. When that position became essentially indefensible, rather than admitting you had made an incorrect claim, you morphed your argument and began introducing statistical red herrings and then began arguing about minutia related to the red herrings you introduced. At this point it's starting to look like your goal is primarily to keep the discussion going long enough that your initial claims are obscured and forgotten. Quote:
Again, it seems like your goal is less about getting to the bottom of this issue and more about grasping at any straws that might deflect from previous incorrect claims you can't defend. Quote:
You created a strawman when you (intentionally?) ignored the "over a knife" portion of the quote and then responded with a comment comparing gun use to strong arm robberies. Do you expect us to believe that a person who can find all those stats and then analyze them carefully really can't manage to read a simple sentence without missing the crux of it? This is starting to look like keeping an argument going as long as possible simply for the sake of arguing. Moving from one premise to another as one becomes indefensible. Introducing red herrings as necessary to keep things confusing and to deflect from earlier unsupportable claims, and creating blatant strawman arguments when all else fails.
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June 11, 2019, 06:48 AM | #116 | |
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In practice, and in that case experience, once you deviated from the standard self defense feel good training where every move is telegraphed and readily dealt with into more aggressive movements you would normally be hit by the knife more than once in the process. |
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June 11, 2019, 08:33 AM | #117 | ||||
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If knives were so useful for gaining compliance why would criminals discard such a useful tool?? Why would unarmed strong arm gain popularity over a knife? Especially one that carries far less risk to carry, cheaper, and much easier to acquire. In the 1970's, some 4 million robberies were committed with equal parts firearms and knives. By 2010, knives are being used 1/5th the amount of firearms and 1/5 the amount of unarmed strong arm. Either having a firearm or simply strong arming a victim into compliance is MUCH more popular among criminals than any perception of "useful to gain compliance" psychological factor of a knife. I find it a tough pill to swallow that they would give up such a readily available and effective tool as a knife IF it was so effective in favor of increased penalties and risk of using a gun. |
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June 11, 2019, 08:46 AM | #118 | |
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It is simply a fact that proportionally, Firearm robbery and Strong Arm robbery have remained relatively steady over the decades from the 1970's to present. It is also a fact that the use of knives to gain victim compliance has fallen dramatically. That does not demonstrate a "preference" for a gun. That is simply not correct. |
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June 11, 2019, 09:16 AM | #119 |
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I'm going to attempt to articulate this on the fly so I'll have to beg forgiveness and may need to make adjustments as we discuss it.
If confronted by an attacker I care about (and I may have missed some) 1) Determination and commitment 2) The demands said potential attacker has made 3) Competence / general fitness 4) Weapon used What weapon my attacker is using is pretty low on the list. What is he or she demanding? Even competence can be over stated because we all "know" the stories of the untrained individual who walked out of a situation he or she should not have through seeming will power alone. Look if you make some demand for $5 and I perceive I am simply going to walk away from the issue I am going to walk away. If I have some actual belief that you are desperate and going to attempt something $5 is pretty cheap and dealing with the aftermath of a successful engagement is not worth it If you make demands I hand over a child I am going to weigh weather you meant it or are simply some lunatic babbling on. If its the former then the rest of the list does not matter I will either win or meet the Valkyries wondering what just happened. If it is the later disengagement and a call to the proper authorities seems reasonable. The weapon in your hand? Pretty low on the priority list. Does it make a difference? Maybe in how I deal with the issue. |
June 11, 2019, 09:28 AM | #120 | |
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June 11, 2019, 11:21 AM | #121 |
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Knives, guns bla..... Threaten me or mine with a weapon, give me the slightest chance I am gonna shoot them in the face.
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June 11, 2019, 11:29 AM | #122 |
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Gun owners like to say that guns don't kill, people do. Well, criminals willing to use violence without hesitation or compunction are well aware of that fact, and probably believe it on a more visceral level than the average law-abiding person or cop.
A problem with engaging in an intellectual discussion regarding how criminals may consider the "psychological v. physiological" distinctions involved in the use of a knife or a gun is that law-abiding people often have a hard time thinking like criminals. Habitual criminals don't seem to use the same reasoning in their actions as law-abiding persons. You talk to enough criminals, you may get the feeling that they're more concerned about the person they're confronting than the specific type of weapon they may be facing. Meaning they're more concerned whether they're facing another criminal, than a law-abiding person (victim) or a cop. Habitual criminals know other criminals aren't concerned about breaking the law and will use violence without warning or compunction, while regular people are afraid of going to jail (losing their jobs, etc) and cops have to act within the rules (laws and policies) or lose their jobs. This was one of the things mentioned in the LEOKA class I attended (a federally sponsored training program of tracking Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted), and which was developed after a lot of interviews with convicted suspects of violent crimes. It was unsurprising and was similar to what I'd come to learn after a career's worth of facing, arresting, talking and interacting with folks who spent a lot of time being arrested and convicted of crimes. The people who accept that they may live or die by violence on any given day (criminals) seem more concerned by the people they may face. Guns and knives don't possess the will to be used, but the people who wield them may ... or may not. Knives (or other cutting instruments) of any sort of pretty ubiquitous and easy to come by in our society. Just visit the nearest hardware store, flea market, etc. Guns are a little more difficult for criminals to find, but theft keeps them pretty available. Just some thoughts.
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June 11, 2019, 02:17 PM | #123 | |||
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There are scholarly articles on why criminals carry knives link and interviews with criminals that carry knives in the UK. link2 Most are carrying for protection and deterrence (psychological intimidation) is one of the top reasons given for carrying the knife.
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Since criminals use no weapon more often than they use guns in robbery, does that mean that hands and feet are more intimidating than guns? I can't wait for your next round of explanations. It will be hard to top your claim that a knife that is presented loses it's psychological intimidation effect. |
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June 11, 2019, 02:22 PM | #124 |
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Considering the UKs gun laws would it be safe to argue that the availability of guns is MUCH lower than in the US and the deterrence effect of such gun laws, if there is one, is much higher. Brandishment of a firearm in the US, at least in many places, is a fairly minor thing. In the UK its a tremendously serious crime with serious underlying crimes (possession) present.
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June 11, 2019, 02:55 PM | #125 |
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I agree, Lohman, that guns are not as common in the UK. A replica gun, bb gun, toy gun, non-functional gun, or Airsoft gun might be used by a criminal here in the US or in the UK to commit a robbery but knives seem to be much more popular in the UK.
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