cleaning patches and brushes in one direction only ?

rebs · June 20, 2019, 07:24 AM

Why do some recommend only running patches and cleaning brushes from breech to muzzle ?

**4V50 Gary** · June 20, 2019, 07:52 AM

Don't want to ruin the crown on the muzzle. If you must clean from the muzzle, like on a M-1 Garand type action, use a muzzle protector.

SIGSHR · June 20, 2019, 12:37 PM

IIRC all the residue and debris goes in one direction and out of the bore.

gwpercle · June 20, 2019, 01:27 PM

I was never taught the rule...I run them all the way from one end to the other.
Rag in the action to catch any debris and plastic crown protector on the muzzle .
I like to clean them going and coming .
Gary

SIGSHR · June 20, 2019, 02:23 PM

My procedure is I soak the bore, then clean from the breech where possible. The patch comes out dirty, I either rotate it or replace it till it comes out clean.

**Unclenick** · June 20, 2019, 09:12 PM

I think there is also the idea, especially with brushes, that you want any burnishing effect to bias microscopic tool mark edges toward the front. Getting this backward has long been used to explain why some barrels that look OK in the borescope grab copper, while others that look the same or sometimes worse do not metal foul so badly. If the barrel is cut rifled or button rifled, you wanted the muzzle at the end at which the cutter or button finished a stroke to avoid this, if it is, indeed, the cause.

For abrasive cleaners, the idea is you want the throat to squeeze the treated patch onto the rifling so it gets some of the polishing effects. Coming from the muzzle, it doesn't see much of that.

Bart B. · June 21, 2019, 11:19 AM

I have watched National Champions and record holders run bronze brushes in bare steel rods back and forth in center fire barrels using a rod guide in the receiver without any concern about damaging the bore or crown. I did the same without any concern.

Same with Garands even though there is no copper wash in the last half inch or more of the bore at the muzzle, proof the bare steel cleaning rod wore away the bore a couple thousandth at the muzzle verified with the wear gauge. They've tested sub MOA at 600 yards with that much wear.

RC20 · June 21, 2019, 12:12 PM

Like a great deal of gun advice, its nonsense that people sitting around the campfire drinking Jack Danial's came up with and continues to get repeated

**JohnKSa** · June 21, 2019, 07:48 PM

Another issue is that, especially with rifle brushes (which can be longer and have shorter/stiffer bristles than pistol brushes) trying to reverse the brush in the bore can result in the bristles binding in the bore. It's hard on the brush, and, I suppose, in extreme circumstances, might cause damage to the bore depending on the gun and the cleaning brush.

CockNBama · June 22, 2019, 11:56 AM

Fax is fax, but don't blame it on Jack.

F. Guffey · June 23, 2019, 02:08 PM

For years barrels have been cleaned, it was just after that I started collecting barrel cleaning equipment. I have a few jointed/section cleaning systems that came in the butt of a rifle. I found it necessary to assemble and then grind the joints smooth and or tape the joints. and then there was the rifle, a few would not allow the rod to fit the chamber from the chamber end, it was from the front only.

And then came all the excuses for muzzle ware. It seemed all of that sawing back and forth was blamed for most of it. And then I thought about it and decided I could do a better job so I made a barrel cleaning de-vise. The thought came to me while dumpster diving.

It did not matter if I cleaned the barrel from the throat end or the muzzle end. And I could use the same system on rifles that could not be cleaned from the throat end.

F. Guffey

Pahoo · June 23, 2019, 06:59 PM

If "It" has a breech, always go breech to muzzle. Now then, If it's an M/L, I usually have to go muzzle to breech but I always us a bore guide. …

Be Safe !!!

There is no breach loader that cannot be cleaned, breech to muzzle.
Now I just have to wait for the rebuttals. ….

F. Guffey · June 27, 2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Now I just have to wait for the rebuttals. ….

I have bolts that are designed for reaming chambers there are difficult to ream from the breach' those chambers that are easier to ream when the reamer is pulled from the front. These bolts can not be talked about around here because of the rebuttals, I don't need it. I make my own barrel cleaning system, with this system I can clean from the breach end and I can clean from the muzzle end.

I prefer cleaning the barrel from the breach to the muzzle; to me it is a choice because I can clean the barrel from either end.

F. Guffey

Don Fischer · June 27, 2019, 02:42 PM

I do clean from the chamber end, don't use one of those chamber deals though. Don't use bronze brushes any more, the brush will leave sign's of copper in the barrel, these day's it's nylon. Patch's go in, come out the muzzle and then back out the chamber. Goes out the muzzle and going back in it turns the patch over to the other side. The idea that a bronze brush will wear out a steel barrel is lost on me. When I used them, they would end up wearing out from use and get less tight in the barrel. If I was to except the idea of the brush wearing the barrel, how many time's would it have to go through to do any significant damage to the barrel. I've got a 1903 Springfield that shoot's fine and the guy I got it from always cleaned with bronze brush's and from the barrel!It was built in 1945, sure is taking a long time!

Bart B. · June 27, 2019, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Fischer

I ... Don't use bronze brushes any more, the brush will leave sign's of copper in the barrel, .....

So does the first shot from a copper-free barrel. Then more with subsequent shots.

Mobuck · June 28, 2019, 07:39 AM

My patches go out the muzzle. Brushes make a full travel both ways(I'm not going to unscrew the brush at the muzzle for every stroke). By the time I use a brush, most of the particulates have been pushed out the muzzle by the patches so hardly anything is getting dropped in the chamber on the return stroke.

Don Fischer · June 28, 2019, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart B.

So does the first shot from a copper-free barrel. Then more with subsequent shots.

Point is if your looking to get out all the copper, ya never really know if you did with a wire brush. I did that with my 30-06 to switch to cast bullet's for awhile. Used Sweet's to try and get rid if the copper and never did seem to get it all. The trace of color was coming from the brush. These days I leave a little copper in the barrel. Doesn't seem to make much difference. Use nylon brush's too and not really a good reason why!

old roper · June 28, 2019, 10:12 AM

This is from John Kreiger

John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
"I'm not a big fan of brushes. I think brushes are more a throwback to the black powder days....We try to minimize their use. On my own guns, even with patches, I'll try to keep the patch and jag from exiting the muzzle and dragging on the crown. I like to avoid having anything dragging across the crown."

We had a chance to talk to barrel-maker John Krieger at Show Show. We discussed the use of bronze brushes for barrel cleaning. John observed that he prefers not to use bronze brushes on his barrels. He also feels that it is wise not to draw a bronze brush backwards across the crown. He explained: "The brush is soft, but the stuff it drags with it, primer residues and so on, are not soft, and they can harm the crown." Also, on his personal guns, when John cleans with a patch, he tries to avoid running the patch and the jag past the muzzle. When cleaning, he places the rifle so the muzzle butts up against a wall. When the tip of the jag hits the wall he draws it back through the bore and removes it from the breech end. John notes that damaged crowns "can make the barrel look like it's shot out when it's not." Here are two video interviews with John: Kreiger 1 min (11 megs), Krieger 2 min (23 megs).

Bart B. · June 28, 2019, 12:09 PM

How many shots are required in test groups comparing one method to another with the same barrel and ammo to see a 10% statistical difference in accuracy and barrel life?

If the stuff the brush drags with it, primer residues and so on, which are not soft, do they harm the lands and grooves as much as the crown?

**Unclenick** · June 28, 2019, 04:31 PM

I can't say I've ever register on that, but I've never shot in bug hole competitions, so I can't speak for those guys who should be able to resolve the smallest changes. I remember Merrill Martin reporting seeing a bore marked by a bronze brush that was reversed inside it, but I don't recall anything about the gun, and a soft .22 RF barrel is going to be marked more easily than a military barrel at RC32. He saw the damage with a borescope. There was a short-lived fad for using stainless steel brushes to help get leading out of guns shooting cast bullets, but they did mark bores and chambers and I think most people have abandoned them. I haven't used a brush myself in some time mainly due to how well the Bore Tech products work.

F. Guffey · June 28, 2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

If the stuff the brush drags with it, primer residues and so on, which are not soft, do they harm the lands and grooves as much as the crown?

Again, I have read and heard about reloaders and shooters brag about how good they are at cleaning their barrels, they also go into the routine about cleaning from one end or the other, after that there is the bumping and banging of the rod etc.

So I put a little thought into it and settled on a system that is unlike any system I have seen. I eliminated the part about complaining about methods and techniques.

I can not talk about it because I got a good start on cleaning barrels after I went dumpster diving. and then? There is always a 'and then' moment. And then I had to discuss it with my wife, I figured out how to use this stuff but I did not know what this stuff was called.

F. Guffey

June 20, 2019, 07:24 AM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	cleaning patches and brushes in one direction only ? Why do some recommend only running patches and cleaning brushes from breech to muzzle ?

June 20, 2019, 07:52 AM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,833	Don't want to ruin the crown on the muzzle. If you must clean from the muzzle, like on a M-1 Garand type action, use a muzzle protector. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 20, 2019, 09:12 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I think there is also the idea, especially with brushes, that you want any burnishing effect to bias microscopic tool mark edges toward the front. Getting this backward has long been used to explain why some barrels that look OK in the borescope grab copper, while others that look the same or sometimes worse do not metal foul so badly. If the barrel is cut rifled or button rifled, you wanted the muzzle at the end at which the cutter or button finished a stroke to avoid this, if it is, indeed, the cause. For abrasive cleaners, the idea is you want the throat to squeeze the treated patch onto the rifling so it gets some of the polishing effects. Coming from the muzzle, it doesn't see much of that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 21, 2019, 11:19 AM	#7
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I have watched National Champions and record holders run bronze brushes in bare steel rods back and forth in center fire barrels using a rod guide in the receiver without any concern about damaging the bore or crown. I did the same without any concern. Same with Garands even though there is no copper wash in the last half inch or more of the bore at the muzzle, proof the bare steel cleaning rod wore away the bore a couple thousandth at the muzzle verified with the wear gauge. They've tested sub MOA at 600 yards with that much wear. Last edited by Bart B.; June 21, 2019 at 11:50 AM.

June 21, 2019, 12:12 PM	#8
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Like a great deal of gun advice, its nonsense that people sitting around the campfire drinking Jack Danial's came up with and continues to get repeated __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

June 20, 2019, 12:37 PM	#3
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IIRC all the residue and debris goes in one direction and out of the bore.

June 20, 2019, 01:27 PM	#4
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	I was never taught the rule...I run them all the way from one end to the other. Rag in the action to catch any debris and plastic crown protector on the muzzle . I like to clean them going and coming . Gary

June 20, 2019, 02:23 PM	#5
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	My procedure is I soak the bore, then clean from the breech where possible. The patch comes out dirty, I either rotate it or replace it till it comes out clean.

June 21, 2019, 07:48 PM	#9
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,985	Another issue is that, especially with rifle brushes (which can be longer and have shorter/stiffer bristles than pistol brushes) trying to reverse the brush in the bore can result in the bristles binding in the bore. It's hard on the brush, and, I suppose, in extreme circumstances, might cause damage to the bore depending on the gun and the cleaning brush. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

June 22, 2019, 11:56 AM	#10
CockNBama Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2014 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 206	Fax is fax, but don't blame it on Jack.

June 23, 2019, 02:08 PM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	For years barrels have been cleaned, it was just after that I started collecting barrel cleaning equipment. I have a few jointed/section cleaning systems that came in the butt of a rifle. I found it necessary to assemble and then grind the joints smooth and or tape the joints. and then there was the rifle, a few would not allow the rod to fit the chamber from the chamber end, it was from the front only. And then came all the excuses for muzzle ware. It seemed all of that sawing back and forth was blamed for most of it. And then I thought about it and decided I could do a better job so I made a barrel cleaning de-vise. The thought came to me while dumpster diving. It did not matter if I cleaned the barrel from the throat end or the muzzle end. And I could use the same system on rifles that could not be cleaned from the throat end. F. Guffey

June 23, 2019, 06:59 PM	#12
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Breech to Muzzle. If "It" has a breech, always go breech to muzzle. Now then, If it's an M/L, I usually have to go muzzle to breech but I always us a bore guide. … Be Safe !!! There is no breach loader that cannot be cleaned, breech to muzzle. Now I just have to wait for the rebuttals. …. __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

June 27, 2019, 02:42 PM	#14
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I do clean from the chamber end, don't use one of those chamber deals though. Don't use bronze brushes any more, the brush will leave sign's of copper in the barrel, these day's it's nylon. Patch's go in, come out the muzzle and then back out the chamber. Goes out the muzzle and going back in it turns the patch over to the other side. The idea that a bronze brush will wear out a steel barrel is lost on me. When I used them, they would end up wearing out from use and get less tight in the barrel. If I was to except the idea of the brush wearing the barrel, how many time's would it have to go through to do any significant damage to the barrel. I've got a 1903 Springfield that shoot's fine and the guy I got it from always cleaned with bronze brush's and from the barrel!It was built in 1945, sure is taking a long time!

June 28, 2019, 07:39 AM	#16
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	My patches go out the muzzle. Brushes make a full travel both ways(I'm not going to unscrew the brush at the muzzle for every stroke). By the time I use a brush, most of the particulates have been pushed out the muzzle by the patches so hardly anything is getting dropped in the chamber on the return stroke.

June 28, 2019, 10:12 AM	#18
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	This is from John Kreiger John Krieger, Krieger Barrels "I'm not a big fan of brushes. I think brushes are more a throwback to the black powder days....We try to minimize their use. On my own guns, even with patches, I'll try to keep the patch and jag from exiting the muzzle and dragging on the crown. I like to avoid having anything dragging across the crown." We had a chance to talk to barrel-maker John Krieger at Show Show. We discussed the use of bronze brushes for barrel cleaning. John observed that he prefers not to use bronze brushes on his barrels. He also feels that it is wise not to draw a bronze brush backwards across the crown. He explained: "The brush is soft, but the stuff it drags with it, primer residues and so on, are not soft, and they can harm the crown." Also, on his personal guns, when John cleans with a patch, he tries to avoid running the patch and the jag past the muzzle. When cleaning, he places the rifle so the muzzle butts up against a wall. When the tip of the jag hits the wall he draws it back through the bore and removes it from the breech end. John notes that damaged crowns "can make the barrel look like it's shot out when it's not." Here are two video interviews with John: Kreiger 1 min (11 megs), Krieger 2 min (23 megs). __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

June 28, 2019, 12:09 PM	#19
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	How many shots are required in test groups comparing one method to another with the same barrel and ammo to see a 10% statistical difference in accuracy and barrel life? If the stuff the brush drags with it, primer residues and so on, which are not soft, do they harm the lands and grooves as much as the crown? Last edited by Bart B.; June 28, 2019 at 12:19 PM.

June 28, 2019, 04:31 PM	#20
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I can't say I've ever register on that, but I've never shot in bug hole competitions, so I can't speak for those guys who should be able to resolve the smallest changes. I remember Merrill Martin reporting seeing a bore marked by a bronze brush that was reversed inside it, but I don't recall anything about the gun, and a soft .22 RF barrel is going to be marked more easily than a military barrel at RC32. He saw the damage with a borescope. There was a short-lived fad for using stainless steel brushes to help get leading out of guns shooting cast bullets, but they did mark bores and chambers and I think most people have abandoned them. I haven't used a brush myself in some time mainly due to how well the Bore Tech products work. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle