100 Yd pistol load

[Nick_C_S]

Okay, this one has been rattling around in my had since the last IDPA I attended (5/24) I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, but here goes. . .

Last month, we had and IDPA stage where you had to hit a 18"x24" steel plate at 100 yards. Silly - I know. Not sure what a 100 yd shot has to do with the spirit of IDPA, but there it was.

I shoot a S&W M67 38 Special 4" bbl. I shoot wadcutters in competition. As soon as I saw the stage, I knew my wadcutters would be tumbling by the time they went that far downrange So I searched my car high and low and found a box of Winchester white box 130g fmj's. I lucked out. Not ideal, I thought, but definitely better than wadcutters.

I hit the target on my 4th shot. The RSO said I was very close on the other three. I told him "if I knew we were going to have a 100 yard stage, I would have brought some hot 158 plated flat points." He said I would be better off with a lighter bullet, and a bystander agreed. They said the flatter trajectory of a lighter bullet would fare better in this situation. My thought process was that you'd want the bullet weight (in spite of the more arching trajectory) to carry it downrange more consistently.

Who was right?

[Bezoar]

i believe it would depend upon the intent.

in theory light and fast would have a nice flatter trajectory to compensate for the sudden increase in range. but the heavier bullet would buck wind better.

and if you can hit it with the light bullet thats fine. but if you need to hit the target and knock it over, light bullet might not do as well.

[Nick_C_S]

It was suspended from wires. Just needed to go "clank."

[Have gun-will travel]

I shot many 148 gr wad cutters at an 18X24 steel plate at 100 meters which is over 100 yards using several revolvers including a J frame S&W .It is not hard to do ,just find where you need to hold and let it fly I hit 18 out of 20 with my S&W 340 pd. 12 for 12 with a mod 64 4 inch and 6 with a 6 in S&W 686. All using the same wad cutters.

[BuckRub]

I don't know the ballistics of both heavy and light like you're talking about but both I wouldnt believe would have a 2 inch difference at 100 yards so I don't think it make a hill of beans. Either its clangs or you missed.

[SHR970]

Choosing the hottest jacketed load data for the 38 Spec. from Lyman #49 I get a max speed for the 125 gr @ 1005fps & the 158 gr @ 821 fps. Since both bullets are shot from a (and presumably the same) 4" test barrel and since both are Hornady bullets we have as close to a fair comparison as possible. The B.C.s listed are .151 &.206 respectively.

Using the Hornady on line ballistics calculator and assuming a sight height of .2" and a 25 yard zero I get:

The 125 gr. will drop 13.8" and have a residual speed of 893 fps.

The 158 gr. will drop 19.8" and have a residual velocity of 769 fps.

One thing light and fast gives you is less Time of Flight. ToF is THE determining factor in how much something drops. 6" is a fairly substantial difference. ToF also is a major determining factor in how much a cross wind effects a bullet's total wind drift.

[Boomer58cal]

I don't know the ballistics of both heavy and light like you're talking about but both I wouldnt believe would have a 2 inch difference at 100 yards so I don't think it make a hill of beans. Either its clangs or you missed.

+1
Unless of course your wad cutters simply won't stay stable at that range, I don't think it's going to make that much difference shooting at a 18"x24" plate.

I think you're better off shooting the one that you know best and not switching to a special bullet for 1 special target.

Boomer

[JD0x0]

light bullets with a more streamlined shape would probably be best.

[mete]

The ballistic coefficient of hangun bullets is low. You may drive them hot but they quickly slow down .So ho is not the answer. This is especially apparent in metallic silhouette matches. Larger bore , heavier bullet is the way to go .44 Mag full loads will do it well. Accuracy counts as the target at 200 yds is a ram 36"x 24" IIRC.

[Jim243]

Not sure what a 100 yd shot has to do with the spirit of IDPA

It doesn't, and it could not have been a sanctioned match because anyone required to shoot that distance can file a protest of their scores with IDPA national.

6.7. Seventy-five percent (75%) of all shots required in a match must be fifteen (15) yards or less. No shots
longer than twenty-five (25) yards may be required in scenario stages. 35-yard shots are only allowed in standard stages and limited to 6 rounds per stage.

Jim

[boondocker385]

And what Jim said is why I don't like idpa... too many rules.....

[Chuck Dye]

You might do well to pursue the question with the silhouette crowd, though their solutions might be overkill.

[Nick_C_S]

it could not have been a sanctioned match

It wasn't. We often compete with "El Dorado rules" (the name of the range). There's a lot of unsanctioned firearms, ammo, equipment, lack of concealment, etc. I made that sound terrible. It's actually a well organized meet, the spirit of IDPA is mostly in tact. I personally "self police." All my equipment, ammo, attaire, is IDPA compliant.

You might do well to pursue the question with the silhouette crowd, though their solutions might be overkill.

Yeah, I was confused on where to go with this question; it was mostly theoretical in nature. I don't expect we'll have many 100 yard stages.

SHR970 wrote: One thing light and fast gives you is less Time of Flight. ToF is THE determining factor in how much something drops. 6" is a fairly substantial difference. ToF also is a major determining factor in how much a cross wind effects a bullet's total wind drift.

I think SHR970 has a grip on it. He probably answered plenty well enough to make the correct point. I now believe my peers were right; and I was wrong. I would have been best off with a 125g plated flat point (of the bullets I have on hand), loaded rather warm. And it was considerably breezy that day, btw.

[griz]

I suspect when they said light & fast they meant that load would hit closest to the sights. I've made hits like that with a short barreled 22, but there was so much drop it took about a cylinder full to get on target.

[mikld]

I'm not a long distance handgun shooter, but why not just find out where the wadcutters hit at 100 yds? If all you gotta do is make a noise by hitting the gong, wouldn't it be better to use just one bullet for all portions of the competition?

[salvadore]

I agree with MR. Travel, hitting a 100yd 2'x1.5' target with a handgun ain't rocket surgery.

[Overscore]

In theory, a faster trajectory would be better. No matter what mass is flying down range, gravity is pulling it down from the moment it leaves the muzzle. The less time it is traveling, the less distance down gravity can pull it, so a flatter trajectory than a slower projectile. But, there are more things at play as others have pointed out, such as wind and air resistance.

That aside, what a bizarre IDPA stage to a shot that is four times the max allowed distance.

[SHR970]

Hornady 148 gr. HBWC B.C.= .047

Lyman 150 gr W.C. B.C. = .038

Yeah, there is more at play than just muzzle velocity. What would you rather compensate for: 13 inches of drop or 30 inches of drop? We haven't even begun to look at wind drift yet. Guess how well the wadcutter does?

[JD0x0]

Hornady 148 gr. HBWC B.C.= .047

Lyman 150 gr W.C. B.C. = .038

Ouch. What are those shotgun pellets? Because the BC looks like it.

Why not the Hornady 140 grain 'Cowboy?' it's lighter (and therefore able to be loaded faster) and they claim a G1 BC of .127 which is significantly higher than those wadcutters. I'm not aware of the IDPA rules. Do they specify that you have to shoot W.C.'s? Something with a pointier nose would retain it's velocity better, and therefore shoot flatter with less wind drift.
Lyman #35893 is a 125 grain cast lead bullet with a pointy nose, I can't find a B.C. listed but I'd bet it's still better than those wad cutters even with it's lower mass.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted bysalvadore: I agree with MR. Travel, hitting a 100yd 2'x1.5' target with a handgun ain't rocket surgery.

I gotta agree also. I routinely shoot at a suspended bowling pin @ 70 yards with my handguns. This includes the .38s.

[eldermike]

If hitting it is all that's required then shoot the load you shoot best.

[serf 'rett]

Lighter, faster if you just want to ring the plate and don't have to worry with power factor.

Although afterwards I'd be tempted to set up paper at 100 yards just to see if the wadcutters would still be stable, would hold some type of group and how much they would drop at that distance.

[kilimanjaro]

Faster is flatter, as a general rule. But with a short sight radius and large target, the ability to shoot consistently is the real key. With practice, you can ring the gong out to 400 yards or more, with your .38 Special.

[caz223]

I would have no problem with warmish 125 grain .357 magnum loads out of a 2.5" snubby 686. Or .40 S&W (Or 10mm!) out of my S&W 610, but they are full size platforms, full power ammo, and good sights.
Pretty much anything would work, (Except wadcutters and/or guns with primitive sights.)
I would prolly have opted for the 130 grain FMJ white box, but the 158 grain widowmakers would have worked as well, with a bit more holdover.

[Unclenick]

I've hit a lot of paper plates at 100 yards with ordinary .45 hardball from a 1911. Once you learn the holdover, it's not a big deal.

Flatter shooting happens with lighter bullets, but they also raise the muzzle less by the time they finish traveling down the barrel, so, in a handgun, where barrel whip isn't an issue, they tend to impact lower with the same sight setting to begin with, even at close range. Their shorter time of flight is no guarantee of less wind deflection. The drag component that pulls the bullet away from the wind accelerates a light bullet faster, so it can still end up going just as far to the side or further in that shorter TOF. What really ends up mattering to wind deflection is just the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.

If you are going to change loads for shooting at a longer range, you may want to consider beefing up the velocity of the same bullet or finding a higher ballistic coefficient shape in another bullet nearly the same weight, to avoid creating a short range sight setting difference.

I can think of no reason a wadcutter should become unstable at long range if it was actually stable at short range. Because rotation of a bullet slows down more gradually than forward velocity does, bullets tend to become more stable with range, not less. Only if the bullet is unstable to begin with, does its group spread out with range until it tumbles. If you are seeing bullets become unstable at long range, your barrel is either not spinning them fast enough or you have some other issue (uneven rifling depth at opposite sides of the bore diameter, muzzle crown defect, etc.).

Your wadcutters, at 750 fps, should impact about 2 feet low at 100 yards. For 700 fps, add another 5". It's about twice what my .45 hardball was doing, but neither has anything like the high angled trajectory arc experienced by the guys shooting .45 Colt pistols out to 600 yards or so, trying to hit 8 foot wood target squares. But they do it. Keep an open mind and hold over.