Finally shot that old can of 2400 - Page 2

**Mike Irwin** · March 24, 2014, 03:23 PM

I just flipped off a note to Alliant asking if they have any data in their archives as to when 2400 was first used to load commercial ammunition, and when it was first available as a canister powder.

In reality, the exact date doesn't much matter for the purposes of this thread other than as "hey, that's neat information."

Airman Basic · March 24, 2014, 05:15 PM

Seems I read somewhere that 2400 was developed and named for it's ability to drive 22 Hornet bullets at 2400 fps.

spacecoast · March 27, 2014, 12:30 PM

Here are the pics from that ad, which I received in good shape today.

No doubt, my can is a dead ringer for the one in this ad from the American Rifleman, July 1952:

Note the Hercules Powder Company, "Explosives Department".

Thanks again Mike!

Don P · March 27, 2014, 12:40 PM

spacecoast, just curious as to what you paid for the add? If you don't mind saying

spacecoast · March 27, 2014, 12:42 PM

Don, I think it was $9.20 including shipping.

RC20 · March 27, 2014, 01:31 PM

Spot on about the container, you want a Powder one.

I know they say not to, but what I am doing is cutting the labels off my current containers, put a sticking label on it and use them for the olde powders I have taken out of cans (I got a mixed box a while back as well as some of my old ones I consolidated. )

As always, regardless of what the container says, if contents do not look like what they are find out why (no its not foolproof but safety is many layers of dense and thats another one)

And congratulations on a well considered approach for test and use. I think like most things if we use good judgment and your conservative approach we can do a trial like that and confirm ok or no its acting odd and stop.

TATER · March 27, 2014, 01:35 PM

Hercules goes back as far as the 20's I Know, .. I can remember my Dad telling me stories of his summers spent with G-Paw digging up Lighter-Pine stumps and taking them to The Hercules Plant in Hattiesburg to sale, and G-Paw also did that as a kid too.

RC20,
I Poured the last of my Keg into 1 pounders and made labels too

.

**Mike Irwin** · March 27, 2014, 09:14 PM

Hercules goes back a lot farther than the 1920s.

It was a joint venture by Du Pont and Laflin & Rand powder companies (part of the later powder trust).

Its original purpose was to manufacture dynamite.

Right before World War I the powder trusts were broken up, and the Hercules Powder Company, making smokeless powder, was formed.

Speaking of Hercules and 2400, I heard back from Alliant this afternoon regarding the commercial introduction of 2400 as a canister powder. They confirmed an introduction of 1932.

**Mike Irwin** · March 28, 2014, 08:00 AM

You know, I have a bunch of old Rifleman magazines and other gun magazines from the 1950s and 1960s.

I'm going to have to dig them out and see what advertisements they have for powder.

At Christmas I brought home a Hercules dynamite box that's been in the family since my Great-Grandfather brought it home from the railroad.

TATER · March 28, 2014, 09:09 AM

Mike, I would love to see that box .

**Mike Irwin** · March 28, 2014, 10:22 AM

I need to figure out how to clean it. It's quite dirty. The paint in the logos is still in good shape, but it's just covered with 100 years of dirt and grime.

spacecoast · July 10, 2014, 07:23 PM

Finally had a chance to shoot some upscale loads using powder from the 1950s-era can of 2400.

I was VERY impressed with both loads - 13.1 grains pushing a 158 gr. TMJ (.357 mag) and 17.0 grains pushing a 240 gr. JHP (.44 mag) were both very accurate and comfortable to shoot. The pic below is DA at 17 yards with one cylinder from my 686. No chrony to measure velocity, unfortunately, and these are a bit under max. loads, but I'm sure they were both in the range of 1200 fps or higher.

I also found another pretty old can of 2400 - this one empty. It's pictured below on the right. I'm guessing late 60s or 70s for this one's vintage.

**Mike Irwin** · July 11, 2014, 06:19 AM

The all-metal "pop top" can with lithgraphed paint labels replaced the cardboard "pour spout" can probably in the late 1950s or early 1960s and stuck around until sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s.

OK, this is supposedly a reprint of a 1970 Hercules catalog, and shows the pop tops still being offered.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hercules-Pow...item5654e52d98

The "pop top" cans are, quite frankly, a serious pain in the ass to open and close (especially to close), and from what I've heard they were not particularly popular with reloaders.

The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid, and in the late 1970s/early 1980s were replaced with the round cardboard container with metal ends and an integral collapsable plastic pour spout (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1993...item35d946a12f)

Speaking of advetisements, this Stoeger one had me going...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCULE...item56673632aa

It's listed as a 1955 ad for Hercules powders, but the cans are all wrong...

Then at the bottom I noticed "Not Available for the Duration."

Hum... the duration of what... Well, the duration of World War II, obviously!

spacecoast · July 11, 2014, 08:36 AM

Great info Mike, thanks. And good catch on that Stoeger ad...

**Mike Irwin** · July 11, 2014, 09:15 AM

You know what... I think I've made a mistake...

I said this...

"The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid..."

I'm now thinking that that is totally incorrect.

Hodgdon used those square containers (and not a screw lid, but a friction fit plug lid of either metal or plastic).

They apparently weren't too popular with shooters, as they only seem to have been used for a couple of years and they had a reputation for being difficult to pour from.

I don't think Hercules ever used anything like that; I think they went directly from the pop top can to the round cardboard tube container.

Slamfire · July 11, 2014, 12:59 PM

The ad says 1955 at the top, but in the description, it says, 1944. Which would be consistent "Not available for the duration".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCULE...#ht_1837wt_656

I believe the term “for the duration” may have started in the Civil War, and continued through WW2. Volunteers signed up for military service for a specific period, or the duration. This all came about as the Union Army lost Divisions of 90 day and one year Volunteers after their enlistments ran out. I read a book (War from the Inside http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29313) by an Union Officer whose Division went through Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg (shot to pieces before the sunken road), Chancellorsville, and then their term of enlistment ended and they were sent home. This was a massive loss of experienced, trained veteran troops. While I have not researched this in depth, I highly suspect, later on the terms changed to X years or the duration.

**Mike Irwin** · July 11, 2014, 01:46 PM

Just looking at the cans I knew that the 1955 date was very incorrect...

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that Du Pont only used the martial eagle can design when the US was actually at war, or in the run up to...

Mike / Tx · July 11, 2014, 05:04 PM

Growing up those pop top cans to me were like the "child proof" medicine bottles. I could get in and out of them with ease but I had small fingers compared to pop. I couldn't tell how many of those square metal cans we went through loading up M1 Carbine rounds but I know it was a BUNCH.....

March 24, 2014, 03:23 PM	#26
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I just flipped off a note to Alliant asking if they have any data in their archives as to when 2400 was first used to load commercial ammunition, and when it was first available as a canister powder. In reality, the exact date doesn't much matter for the purposes of this thread other than as "hey, that's neat information." __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 27, 2014, 12:40 PM	#29
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	spacecoast, just curious as to what you paid for the add? If you don't mind saying __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

March 27, 2014, 01:35 PM	#32
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Hercules goes back as far as the 20's I Know, .. I can remember my Dad telling me stories of his summers spent with G-Paw digging up Lighter-Pine stumps and taking them to The Hercules Plant in Hattiesburg to sale, and G-Paw also did that as a kid too. RC20, I Poured the last of my Keg into 1 pounders and made labels too . Last edited by TATER; March 27, 2014 at 02:03 PM.

March 27, 2014, 09:14 PM	#33
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Hercules goes back a lot farther than the 1920s. It was a joint venture by Du Pont and Laflin & Rand powder companies (part of the later powder trust). Its original purpose was to manufacture dynamite. Right before World War I the powder trusts were broken up, and the Hercules Powder Company, making smokeless powder, was formed. Speaking of Hercules and 2400, I heard back from Alliant this afternoon regarding the commercial introduction of 2400 as a canister powder. They confirmed an introduction of 1932. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 28, 2014, 08:00 AM	#34
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You know, I have a bunch of old Rifleman magazines and other gun magazines from the 1950s and 1960s. I'm going to have to dig them out and see what advertisements they have for powder. At Christmas I brought home a Hercules dynamite box that's been in the family since my Great-Grandfather brought it home from the railroad. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 24, 2014, 05:15 PM	#27
Airman Basic Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2013 Location: South of Interstate 20 Posts: 219	Seems I read somewhere that 2400 was developed and named for it's ability to drive 22 Hornet bullets at 2400 fps.

March 27, 2014, 12:30 PM	#28
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Here are the pics from that ad, which I received in good shape today. No doubt, my can is a dead ringer for the one in this ad from the American Rifleman, July 1952: Note the Hercules Powder Company, "Explosives Department". Thanks again Mike!

March 27, 2014, 12:42 PM	#30
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Don, I think it was $9.20 including shipping.

March 27, 2014, 01:31 PM	#31
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Spot on about the container, you want a Powder one. I know they say not to, but what I am doing is cutting the labels off my current containers, put a sticking label on it and use them for the olde powders I have taken out of cans (I got a mixed box a while back as well as some of my old ones I consolidated. ) As always, regardless of what the container says, if contents do not look like what they are find out why (no its not foolproof but safety is many layers of dense and thats another one) And congratulations on a well considered approach for test and use. I think like most things if we use good judgment and your conservative approach we can do a trial like that and confirm ok or no its acting odd and stop.

March 28, 2014, 09:09 AM	#35
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Mike, I would love to see that box .

March 28, 2014, 10:22 AM	#36
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I need to figure out how to clean it. It's quite dirty. The paint in the logos is still in good shape, but it's just covered with 100 years of dirt and grime. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 10, 2014, 07:23 PM	#37
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Finally had a chance to shoot some upscale loads using powder from the 1950s-era can of 2400. I was VERY impressed with both loads - 13.1 grains pushing a 158 gr. TMJ (.357 mag) and 17.0 grains pushing a 240 gr. JHP (.44 mag) were both very accurate and comfortable to shoot. The pic below is DA at 17 yards with one cylinder from my 686. No chrony to measure velocity, unfortunately, and these are a bit under max. loads, but I'm sure they were both in the range of 1200 fps or higher. I also found another pretty old can of 2400 - this one empty. It's pictured below on the right. I'm guessing late 60s or 70s for this one's vintage.

July 11, 2014, 06:19 AM	#38
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	The all-metal "pop top" can with lithgraphed paint labels replaced the cardboard "pour spout" can probably in the late 1950s or early 1960s and stuck around until sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. OK, this is supposedly a reprint of a 1970 Hercules catalog, and shows the pop tops still being offered. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hercules-Pow...item5654e52d98 The "pop top" cans are, quite frankly, a serious pain in the ass to open and close (especially to close), and from what I've heard they were not particularly popular with reloaders. The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid, and in the late 1970s/early 1980s were replaced with the round cardboard container with metal ends and an integral collapsable plastic pour spout (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1993...item35d946a12f) Speaking of advetisements, this Stoeger one had me going... http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCULE...item56673632aa It's listed as a 1955 ad for Hercules powders, but the cans are all wrong... Then at the bottom I noticed "Not Available for the Duration." Hum... the duration of what... Well, the duration of World War II, obviously! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 11, 2014, 08:36 AM	#39
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Great info Mike, thanks. And good catch on that Stoeger ad...

July 11, 2014, 09:15 AM	#40
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You know what... I think I've made a mistake... I said this... "The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid..." I'm now thinking that that is totally incorrect. Hodgdon used those square containers (and not a screw lid, but a friction fit plug lid of either metal or plastic). They apparently weren't too popular with shooters, as they only seem to have been used for a couple of years and they had a reputation for being difficult to pour from. I don't think Hercules ever used anything like that; I think they went directly from the pop top can to the round cardboard tube container. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 11, 2014, 12:59 PM	#41
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	The ad says 1955 at the top, but in the description, it says, 1944. Which would be consistent "Not available for the duration". http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCULE...#ht_1837wt_656 I believe the term “for the duration” may have started in the Civil War, and continued through WW2. Volunteers signed up for military service for a specific period, or the duration. This all came about as the Union Army lost Divisions of 90 day and one year Volunteers after their enlistments ran out. I read a book (War from the Inside http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29313) by an Union Officer whose Division went through Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg (shot to pieces before the sunken road), Chancellorsville, and then their term of enlistment ended and they were sent home. This was a massive loss of experienced, trained veteran troops. While I have not researched this in depth, I highly suspect, later on the terms changed to X years or the duration. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

July 11, 2014, 01:46 PM	#42
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Just looking at the cans I knew that the 1955 date was very incorrect... I'm not 100% certain, but I think that Du Pont only used the martial eagle can design when the US was actually at war, or in the run up to... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 11, 2014, 05:04 PM	#43
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Growing up those pop top cans to me were like the "child proof" medicine bottles. I could get in and out of them with ease but I had small fingers compared to pop. I couldn't tell how many of those square metal cans we went through loading up M1 Carbine rounds but I know it was a BUNCH..... __________________ LAter, Mike / TX