Burn dots on fired shells?

Dannyboy303 · May 16, 2007, 10:17 PM

Can anyone tell me what these burn marks on the fired shells are from? it doesnt usually do that.. should i be worried about this? They are from handloads not factory loaded. These have been reloaded about 4-5 times

Trapper L · May 16, 2007, 10:31 PM

I assume that you are talking about the smokey sides. That can be caused by a variety of things. Using powder that is too slow for the case and the powder is blown by and around the case before peak pressures occur sealing off the gases. The powder actually burns on the side of the case. It can also come from primers not being hot enough to get a good flame front going quick enough and the above comments will happen. This can also occur with belted magnum cases like your using a slow powder with light bullets. There isn't enough bullet resistance to get the powder charge burning as fast as it should and there isn't enough pressure built in time to seal the gases off. The light bullet will move out of the case too soon and pressure inside the case drops which slows the combustion. This can also happen with reduced loads and magnum cases. Considering where you are from, is this with a new lot of powder?

Dannyboy303 · May 16, 2007, 10:39 PM

I was using AR2209 by ADI, i think the north american equivilent is H4350.
The powder is pretty well brand new... i was using though very light loads 125gr if maybe that caused it?

Smokey Joe · May 16, 2007, 10:48 PM

Dannyboy--My experience with smoky cases came with a new (to me) rifle, a Yugo M-48 Mauser, for which I was trying to work up a handload. I started low and safe, and the fired cases scared me when they came out of the chamber, all smoky down the sides. Also got just a bit of warm chamber gas coming my way.

Finally figured out that the load was so low-pressure as to not force the case to fill up the rifle's chamber and seal it. Went to a higher load, and the problem disappeared.

Never seen the smoke pattern in spots, like yours, but I suppose that each rifle is different in this regard.

If the rifle is known to be in good condition, and no trouble with factory ammo, and these smoked rounds were reduced loads, I'd try a slightly heavier load and see if the problem went away.

As a belted magnum, yr rifle is built for heavy loads and that is what it "expects." Likewise the cases.

I WOULD HOWEVER USE PROPER EAR, EYE, AND HAND PROTECTION while doing this, possibly even fire the rifle remotely, from behind a barrier. If the heavier--but still well below max, mind you--load makes the problem disappear, you have your answer.

Under no conditions should you exceed published maxima for powder loads or for pressure. And until you get this smoke problem figured out, I'd stay well below the maxima anyhow.

Good luck--Hope you get it figured out.

Dannyboy303 · May 16, 2007, 10:52 PM

Thanks for the fast and quality replies guys ive kinda got my head wrapped around what you're saying. I'll try heavier loads and see what that does... this load i had was not a reduced load though, it was 72.5grains, 1/2 a grain short of the max load pressure. Anyhow i'll try some 180gr now while the folks are in town, i can fire off the balcony rather than 3k down the paddock

Dannyboy303 · May 16, 2007, 10:55 PM

wow Smokey sounds serious... you're scaring me

just aswell i caught your post edit before i started loading some more.
So you're saying i should load way under max pressures as smokey cases can possibly be the start of something going wrong in my rifle's chamber?

Smokey Joe · May 16, 2007, 11:28 PM

Dannyboy--Sorry if I'm being unclear. In my case, the smoky rounds were CAUSED by the light starting loads, and cured by loading a bit heavier.

Nothing was wrong with my rifle's chamber. The rifle was not harmed by the light loads, it just wasn't getting its chamber sealed by the brass case properly.

I'm not saying you SHOULD load 'way light, I'm saying it caused a smoky-case problem for me. A slightly heavier load cured the problem.

However, since you say that "this load i had was not a reduced load though," your rifle's problem doesn't have the same origin as did mine. And I'm sorry, but in that case I have no clue as to the cause of your rifle's problem.

Hope you get it figured out.

Dannyboy303 · May 16, 2007, 11:39 PM

thanks mate, i hope i get it figured out too.

You and Trapper both have given me some great knowledge though and thanks for that. I will put some factorys through the rifle now as i know they didnt leave smokey sides like that when i was first shooting out factorys to get loading brass. Thanks

Smokey Joe · May 17, 2007, 09:55 AM

Dannyboy--Pls give us an update when you have more data. This is an intriguing problem.

Just a thought--could you have a gunsmith check the specs on yr rifle's chamber, just to be sure there is no abnormality there? (Unlikely as that is.) The 'smith might be able to suggest other answers, too.

Oh, and you might have him check specs on your resizing die while you're at it--again, unlikely to be anything wrong, but if yr reloaded cases were 'way undersized due to an overzealous sizing die...

Mind you, I'm just theorizing here.

Trapper L · May 17, 2007, 10:28 AM

Your problem is too large of a case, too slow of a powder for the too light bullet. If you want to shoot the 125s, I would suggest a powder more similiar to the AR2206H. You don't have a mechanical issue with your shooter, just adjust the loading data according to the bullet weight and you're set to go.

brickeyee · May 17, 2007, 11:48 AM

Looks like low pressure not sealing the case in the chamber, and the light bullet is not helping.

TATER · May 17, 2007, 01:37 PM

Are you talking about the Polka Dots or Sooty Neck?

Crazy4nitro · May 17, 2007, 06:42 PM

I think they are heat marks from the grains of powder resting against the case.

But I have no clue why as I have never seen that before.

C4N

**Unclenick** · May 17, 2007, 07:56 PM

The regular dot pattern clearly reflects a cloth weave of some kind. I am guessing you had a thin coat of oil or inadequately cleaned case lube on these cases and laid the rounds against some canvas, then fired them hot enough to get oxidation discoloration where the cloth wicked the lube away.

Nick

Dannyboy303 · May 18, 2007, 01:46 AM

Im talking about the polka dots tater.
I have fired some Factory ammunition through the rifle and it is shooting fine, no dots. Then i used that brass being only once fired to load up some 180gr Barnes Tshock ammo, expensive!!! (i loaded that because its the only 180gr ammunition i have) and loaded .5g under the max pressure yet i am still getting these dots on the fired cases, not as noticeable with the 180gr but still there. This only started happening a couple days ago. Maybe my gunpowder has had moisture through it? i did leave it in the powder thrower for a couple days... would that do anything?

I have another batch of powder AR2213sc which is even slower burning. I just have to get the load data for 300win from ADI and i will try that and let you all know how it goes

Smokeyjoe- yeah i could take the rifle into the gunsmith but thats 6hrs away unfortunately

mrawesome22 · May 18, 2007, 02:04 AM

I'm with UncleNick.

My first gut feeling was that the rounds had oil on them, then laid on some sort of "pebbled" surface, which when shot, showed the pattern clearly.

Imagine taking an oily finger, putting your finger and rolling it on the case, then shooting it. Your finger print would probably be clear.

This is all just hypothesis though.

TATER · May 18, 2007, 10:34 AM

Dannyboy

I’m in with UncleNick and mrawesome.
It is simply tarnish. It has nothing to do with pressure.
I bet if you retrace your brass prep or loading procedures
You will find a corresponding surface on your bench where
you laid the brass at some point before it was fired.

Tater

Edward429451 · May 18, 2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Imagine taking an oily finger, putting your finger and rolling it on the case, then shooting it. Your finger print would probably be clear.

This is all just hypothesis though.

Imagine taking a finger wet with Off bug spray and touching your 10/22 stock and finding a perfect gold fingerprint on it the next day, semi permanent. Ask me how I know.

I'm with the other guys on this. You prolly have a pebbled surface in your reloading room somewhere that you laid the cases on.

Dannyboy303 · May 18, 2007, 09:40 PM

UncleNick, and others you're spot on. Infact im certain this was case lube now. Im an idiot i should have thought of this before! I was using a spray on case lube and then when i layed it on the vinyl bench it must have made a pattern like that. i sprayed case lube on a factory round then sat it where i normally put my loaded rounds. It left dotty burn marks on the case after i fired it. Well Thanks all you solved my problem

, thank god it wasnt serious!

Cheers

TEDDY · May 19, 2007, 08:02 PM

Dannyboy:you did good detective work and were helped by some thoughtful thinkers.it was a very peculiar problem.shoot on!

May 16, 2007, 10:48 PM	#4
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Burnt cases Dannyboy--My experience with smoky cases came with a new (to me) rifle, a Yugo M-48 Mauser, for which I was trying to work up a handload. I started low and safe, and the fired cases scared me when they came out of the chamber, all smoky down the sides. Also got just a bit of warm chamber gas coming my way. Finally figured out that the load was so low-pressure as to not force the case to fill up the rifle's chamber and seal it. Went to a higher load, and the problem disappeared. Never seen the smoke pattern in spots, like yours, but I suppose that each rifle is different in this regard. If the rifle is known to be in good condition, and no trouble with factory ammo, and these smoked rounds were reduced loads, I'd try a slightly heavier load and see if the problem went away. As a belted magnum, yr rifle is built for heavy loads and that is what it "expects." Likewise the cases. I WOULD HOWEVER USE PROPER EAR, EYE, AND HAND PROTECTION while doing this, possibly even fire the rifle remotely, from behind a barrier. If the heavier--but still well below max, mind you--load makes the problem disappear, you have your answer. Under no conditions should you exceed published maxima for powder loads or for pressure. And until you get this smoke problem figured out, I'd stay well below the maxima anyhow. Good luck--Hope you get it figured out. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe Last edited by Smokey Joe; May 16, 2007 at 10:51 PM. Reason: The usual--had another thought.

May 16, 2007, 11:28 PM	#7
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Unclarity.. Dannyboy--Sorry if I'm being unclear. In my case, the smoky rounds were CAUSED by the light starting loads, and cured by loading a bit heavier. Nothing was wrong with my rifle's chamber. The rifle was not harmed by the light loads, it just wasn't getting its chamber sealed by the brass case properly. I'm not saying you SHOULD load 'way light, I'm saying it caused a smoky-case problem for me. A slightly heavier load cured the problem. However, since you say that "this load i had was not a reduced load though," your rifle's problem doesn't have the same origin as did mine. And I'm sorry, but in that case I have no clue as to the cause of your rifle's problem. Hope you get it figured out. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

May 17, 2007, 09:55 AM	#9
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Hmmm. (Scratches head.) Dannyboy--Pls give us an update when you have more data. This is an intriguing problem. Just a thought--could you have a gunsmith check the specs on yr rifle's chamber, just to be sure there is no abnormality there? (Unlikely as that is.) The 'smith might be able to suggest other answers, too. Oh, and you might have him check specs on your resizing die while you're at it--again, unlikely to be anything wrong, but if yr reloaded cases were 'way undersized due to an overzealous sizing die... Mind you, I'm just theorizing here. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe Last edited by Smokey Joe; May 17, 2007 at 10:00 AM. Reason: The usual--had another thought.

May 17, 2007, 01:37 PM	#12
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Polka Dots or Sooty Neck? Are you talking about the Polka Dots or Sooty Neck?

May 17, 2007, 07:56 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The regular dot pattern clearly reflects a cloth weave of some kind. I am guessing you had a thin coat of oil or inadequately cleaned case lube on these cases and laid the rounds against some canvas, then fired them hot enough to get oxidation discoloration where the cloth wicked the lube away. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 16, 2007, 10:31 PM	#2
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	I assume that you are talking about the smokey sides. That can be caused by a variety of things. Using powder that is too slow for the case and the powder is blown by and around the case before peak pressures occur sealing off the gases. The powder actually burns on the side of the case. It can also come from primers not being hot enough to get a good flame front going quick enough and the above comments will happen. This can also occur with belted magnum cases like your using a slow powder with light bullets. There isn't enough bullet resistance to get the powder charge burning as fast as it should and there isn't enough pressure built in time to seal the gases off. The light bullet will move out of the case too soon and pressure inside the case drops which slows the combustion. This can also happen with reduced loads and magnum cases. Considering where you are from, is this with a new lot of powder?

May 16, 2007, 10:39 PM	#3
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	I was using AR2209 by ADI, i think the north american equivilent is H4350. The powder is pretty well brand new... i was using though very light loads 125gr if maybe that caused it?

May 16, 2007, 10:52 PM	#5
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	Thanks for the fast and quality replies guys ive kinda got my head wrapped around what you're saying. I'll try heavier loads and see what that does... this load i had was not a reduced load though, it was 72.5grains, 1/2 a grain short of the max load pressure. Anyhow i'll try some 180gr now while the folks are in town, i can fire off the balcony rather than 3k down the paddock

May 16, 2007, 10:55 PM	#6
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	wow Smokey sounds serious... you're scaring me just aswell i caught your post edit before i started loading some more. So you're saying i should load way under max pressures as smokey cases can possibly be the start of something going wrong in my rifle's chamber?

May 16, 2007, 11:39 PM	#8
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	thanks mate, i hope i get it figured out too. You and Trapper both have given me some great knowledge though and thanks for that. I will put some factorys through the rifle now as i know they didnt leave smokey sides like that when i was first shooting out factorys to get loading brass. Thanks

May 17, 2007, 10:28 AM	#10
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	Your problem is too large of a case, too slow of a powder for the too light bullet. If you want to shoot the 125s, I would suggest a powder more similiar to the AR2206H. You don't have a mechanical issue with your shooter, just adjust the loading data according to the bullet weight and you're set to go.

May 17, 2007, 11:48 AM	#11
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Looks like low pressure not sealing the case in the chamber, and the light bullet is not helping.

May 17, 2007, 06:42 PM	#13
Crazy4nitro Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Location: Lou-a-vul KY Posts: 142	I think they are heat marks from the grains of powder resting against the case. But I have no clue why as I have never seen that before. C4N

May 18, 2007, 01:46 AM	#15
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	Im talking about the polka dots tater. I have fired some Factory ammunition through the rifle and it is shooting fine, no dots. Then i used that brass being only once fired to load up some 180gr Barnes Tshock ammo, expensive!!! (i loaded that because its the only 180gr ammunition i have) and loaded .5g under the max pressure yet i am still getting these dots on the fired cases, not as noticeable with the 180gr but still there. This only started happening a couple days ago. Maybe my gunpowder has had moisture through it? i did leave it in the powder thrower for a couple days... would that do anything? I have another batch of powder AR2213sc which is even slower burning. I just have to get the load data for 300win from ADI and i will try that and let you all know how it goes Smokeyjoe- yeah i could take the rifle into the gunsmith but thats 6hrs away unfortunately

May 18, 2007, 02:04 AM	#16
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I'm with UncleNick. My first gut feeling was that the rounds had oil on them, then laid on some sort of "pebbled" surface, which when shot, showed the pattern clearly. Imagine taking an oily finger, putting your finger and rolling it on the case, then shooting it. Your finger print would probably be clear. This is all just hypothesis though.

May 18, 2007, 10:34 AM	#17
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Tarnish.... Dannyboy I’m in with UncleNick and mrawesome. It is simply tarnish. It has nothing to do with pressure. I bet if you retrace your brass prep or loading procedures You will find a corresponding surface on your bench where you laid the brass at some point before it was fired. Tater

May 18, 2007, 09:40 PM	#19
Dannyboy303 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 116	UncleNick, and others you're spot on. Infact im certain this was case lube now. Im an idiot i should have thought of this before! I was using a spray on case lube and then when i layed it on the vinyl bench it must have made a pattern like that. i sprayed case lube on a factory round then sat it where i normally put my loaded rounds. It left dotty burn marks on the case after i fired it. Well Thanks all you solved my problem , thank god it wasnt serious! Cheers

May 19, 2007, 08:02 PM	#20
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	spots Dannyboy:you did good detective work and were helped by some thoughtful thinkers.it was a very peculiar problem.shoot on!