Ballistic Tip Failures...... - Page 3

Sure Shot Mc Gee · January 30, 2013, 02:18 PM

I'd bet a month pay you never thought this thread would garner so much attention. Holy Mackerel you got comments from the other side of the world!! Even the Staff his taken a hit for yaw. I'm not gonna Gee Gaw Yaw any longer. I figure if your old enough to pull the trigger you know whats going on. Semper Fi Brother. lol

S/S

JarheadHunter · January 30, 2013, 02:22 PM

Thank you for that information. That is another thing I was hoping to find out was the difference between the 2. I didnt buy the Z-max because of the zombie appeal, but becasue it seemed to be the same thign as the leverevolution and the z-max was actually cheeper when and where I purchased them.

JarheadHunter · January 30, 2013, 02:24 PM

Sepmer Fidelis!

thallub · January 30, 2013, 04:31 PM

Yep, folks gut shoot game animals; no doubt about that. Many of those same folks blame the bullet even though the bullet is seldom at fault. Yep, i've gut shot game animals too. Went through a rash of that in 2008 when i gutshot several hogs and two deer. After long tracking and dragging jobs all were recovered.

Even if the bullet fails to expand, a double lunged deer will very seldom travel more than 150 yards after being hit. Decades ago i hunted with .30 caliber US Army ball ammo: Killed dozens of deer with the stuff. When properly placed that ball ammo killed deer just as dead as those hit with soft point bullets.

Last deer/elk season i tracked and recovered 14 deer and three elk for other hunters. Three hunters fessed up to making bad shots. Several hunters claimed they "double lunged" their animals and the bullet failed to expand. The coyotes beat us to five deer. Not one intact animal was "double lunged" and most intact animals were gutshot. Longest tracking job was about 2.5 kilometers.

IMO: Most hunters cannot track wounded animals. Some blood trails last season were glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers. But the dog and i had fun: Also got a lot of good elk meat.

Pongo · January 30, 2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

this just happened to be a new one with a scope and not opened sights.

Scope and mounts all tight?

GeauxTide · January 30, 2013, 08:50 PM

The Zombie rounds are AMax bullets, which Hornady specifically states are not for game use. Hornady SSTs are game busters. The Leverloution line has been getting good reviews, also. You also never mentioned the caliber you were using.

reloader28 · January 30, 2013, 11:37 PM

I'm not sure of that GeauxTide.
From what I've heard Hornady is starting to think of A-max as hunting bullets. Like I say, thats what I've heard. I could be wrong. But I think its what the Long Range Pursute guys are using.

I know the couple A-max bullets I've seen used on elk performed like an absolute perfect hunting bullet.

JarheadHunter · January 31, 2013, 07:34 AM

Marlin 30-30 336. Scope rings and mounts were tight. It was about 130-140 yd shot each time. Looking into it now they do have a disclaimer on the z-max and I am almost sure that I read that before and thought it was more a "joke" marketing scheme. When you look at the 160 grain z-max compared to the 160 grain FTX the ballistics are identical. I am goign to go with what was said earlier that its just a different colored tip. It looks like I have 12 hog rounds left, and a box of 160 grain plain old levereveolutoin that I am still skeptical about using so I better make it 32 hog rounds.

HiBC · January 31, 2013, 10:57 AM

Once again,it can be important,that fine Marlin has a tube magazine.The rubber pointy bullets are OK ,but other pointy bullets with hard tips,even plastic,are a bad idea in the tube.The pointy end finds the primer of the next round in the tube during recoil,it gets unhappy.

You probably know that,but with the bullets we are talking about,wanted to make sure.

hooligan1 · January 31, 2013, 05:23 PM

Quote: I don't eat 95% of the deer I kill.
Why? Are you saying you like to kill deer just to kill deer?

I kill animals, because I need to eat and feed my family. If they weren't suitable to eat, then I would never kill them.

Quote: My experience indicates, to me, they BT are basically Partitions with plastic tips.
Wrong.. Your experience indicates to everyone now that you have no knowledge of Ballistic Tips Or Partitions.......

Bottom line here is that Jarhead, had a bad day in the field and shared with us his dismay for certain types of bullets.... It Happens!!

And many of us here are guilty of bad shots and thats why practice is Paramount....... Paramount........

Brian Pfleuger · January 31, 2013, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooligan1

Quote: I don't eat 95% of the deer I kill.
Why? Are you saying you like to kill deer just to kill deer?
I kill animals, because I need to eat and feed my family. If they weren't suitable to eat, then I would never kill them.

My original statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

I don't eat 95% of the deer I kill. I give them away or take them to a butcher shop to be donated.

reynolds357 · January 31, 2013, 05:55 PM

Realistically speaking, bullet failures are a legitimate concern when taking deer with Cartridges such as the .220 Swift, .257 WBY, .264 Win Mag. etc. Poor bullet selection in one of these type cartridges can lead to game lost due to bullet failure, or more accurately stated "Game lost due to poor bullet selection." On the other hand, in a .30-30 WCF, you can shoot cast, Hollow point, round nose, leveroution, or whatever else you want barring the accelerator sabot and bullet failure is not going to happen on a deer.

GeauxTide · January 31, 2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure of that GeauxTide.
From what I've heard Hornady is starting to think of A-max as hunting bullets. Like I say, thats what I've heard. I could be wrong. But I think its what the Long Range Pursute guys are using.

I know the couple A-max bullets I've seen used on elk performed like an absolute perfect hunting bullet.

From Hornady's Web Site:
A-MAX®
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...
•Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
•Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
•These bullets are not recommended for hunting.

In my view, using AMax bullets on big game is ludicrous, and they are more expensive than the proven Interlocks and SSTs.

603Country · January 31, 2013, 08:47 PM

Reynolds357 is correct about using (not using) explosive bullets in rifles like the 220 Swift for deer. When I was host hunting (me being the host), I let the guests shoot deer, and I'd plug the occasional coyote with my 220. Well, if the ranch house got low on meat, they'd call me on the radio to shoot a doe. Often all I'd have was that 220, and it would have the old Nosler 55 grain Solid Base Boattails, which were less explosive than today's Ballistic Tips. It was iffy shooting deer with that bullet, so finally I'd just borrow a guest's rifle. Like so many others have said, ya gotta match the bullet to the job. I use a lot of BT's but I won't use a Varmint Ballistic Tip on a deer. Not anymore I won't.

And I sure hope the OP isn't using those pointy hard plastic tipped bullets in the 336 tubular magazine. That's disaster waiting to happen.

LSnSC · February 1, 2013, 07:27 AM

The 30-30 Zmax IS NOT the Amax bullet re packaged. It is the FTX, which is a deer slayer. Had the deer been hit in the vitals with this bullet it, you probably would have found blood and a dead deer nearby. The deer either wasnt hit in the vitals or wasnt tracked far enough due to thick cover. It happens...

JarheadHunter · February 1, 2013, 11:03 AM

Being that the extended doe season in South Texas is over this weekend. I will be stuck to shooting only hogs untill I move. I will sight in with these remaining rounds (again) this weekend and when i go out for some piggy wiggy's I will post what happens.

Saltydog235 · February 1, 2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Being that the extended doe season in South Texas is over this weekend. I will be stuck to shooting only hogs untill I move. I will sight in with these remaining rounds (again) this weekend and when i go out for some piggy wiggy's I will post what happens.

Heck, if its pigs, just make sure you hit them somewhere so they crawl off and die. Buzzards need to eat too, same as worms.

GeauxTide · February 1, 2013, 01:35 PM

Quote:

The 30-30 Zmax IS NOT the Amax bullet re packaged. It is the FTX

Let's put this to bed. I just got off the phone with Hornady. The ZMax is a plinking/varmint bullet. ANYTHING WITH a MAX DESIGNATION IS NOT FOR GAME USE. The smaller calibers are similar to the VMax. The only bullets Hornady recommends for game is Interlock, Interbond, GMX, FTX, and SST.

huntinaz · February 1, 2013, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Let's put this to bed. I just got off the phone with Hornady. The ZMax is a plinking/varmint bullet. ANYTHING WITH a MAX DESIGNATION IS NOT FOR GAME USE. The smaller calibers are similar to the VMax. The only bullets Hornady recommends for game is Interlock, Interbond, GMX, FTX, and SST.

Did you ask specifically about the 30-30 offering? I just think it would be silly for them to design a whole different bullet when they could just stick a green tip on the FTX and that's the only change in the assembly line...

thallub · February 1, 2013, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Heck, if its pigs, just make sure you hit them somewhere so they crawl off and die

What fine hunting ethics you have-not!!!!

L_Killkenny · February 1, 2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Let's put this to bed. I just got off the phone with Hornady. The ZMax is a plinking/varmint bullet. ANYTHING WITH a MAX DESIGNATION IS NOT FOR GAME USE. The smaller calibers are similar to the VMax. The only bullets Hornady recommends for game is Interlock, Interbond, GMX, FTX, and SST.

I don't care who you talked to at Hornady, the 160gr .30-30 zmax is not a varmint bullet. For matters of simple physics .308 varmint bullets are pretty much limited to 100-110 gr, sometimes up to 125. Hard to make mid and upper weight bullets (for caliber) with much splat factor. I'm sure much of their zmax line is constructed around varmint bullets and their pat answer is gonna read as much but it's pretty easy to see the writing with this .30-30 bullet. As also stated, they aren't gonna design a completely new "varmint" flex tip just for the zombie line .30-30. Think about it brother? The .30-30 zmax is the same as the leverevolution.

As for putting it to rest I'm all for it. The shooter didn't do his part plain and simple.

Saltydog235 · February 1, 2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

What fine hunting ethics you have-not!!!!

Thank you for your vast knowledge of ethics.

Pigs are like roaches, flies and mosquitoes here. Nothing more than vermin to be wiped out by whatever means necessary so that native wildlife can flourish. Do you process and eat and of those? How about coyotes, groundhogs, rats and species such as that? Don't preach to me on a eradicating a pest.

gunrunner1 · February 1, 2013, 04:40 PM

My son and I both have Marlin MXLRs in .308 Marlin Express and both of us have shot a number of deer with them. I can tell you that the 160 grain flex tip bullet is absolutely devastating on deer. I have shot deer with a number of different calibers, and I have lost a few of them. Neither my son or I have lost a deer that was shot with the flex tip bullet.

DiffyDoc · February 2, 2013, 08:07 AM

By golly and shucks!!!!!! Y'all are going after something that just ain't there! JarHead shot twice and got hits. Maybe it is the bullet ant maybe it is the shooter. The 30-30 has probably killed more large game in North America than all the other calibers combined. It is a slow moving hard hitting round....regardless of the bullet type. My suggestion is this, shoot them in the 10-12 inches of the neck that extends from the shoulder and your game will always be right where you squeezed the trigger. They don't run off and make you HUNT them again.

It has worked for me for the past 30 years and I use a little ole .243 with 100gr soft points on deer and elk. Success every time.

thallub · February 2, 2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Do you process and eat and of those?

Yes, i do. Last year i trapped and shot well over 200 wild hogs. All those hogs except one went to some person who wanted the meat. None were gut shot and left to die a lingering death.

January 31, 2013, 07:34 AM	#58
JarheadHunter Member Join Date: October 8, 2012 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 24	Marlin 30-30 336. Scope rings and mounts were tight. It was about 130-140 yd shot each time. Looking into it now they do have a disclaimer on the z-max and I am almost sure that I read that before and thought it was more a "joke" marketing scheme. When you look at the 160 grain z-max compared to the 160 grain FTX the ballistics are identical. I am goign to go with what was said earlier that its just a different colored tip. It looks like I have 12 hog rounds left, and a box of 160 grain plain old levereveolutoin that I am still skeptical about using so I better make it 32 hog rounds. Last edited by JarheadHunter; January 31, 2013 at 07:43 AM.

January 31, 2013, 05:23 PM	#60
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Whoa there,,, I said whoa.. Quote: I don't eat 95% of the deer I kill. Why? Are you saying you like to kill deer just to kill deer? I kill animals, because I need to eat and feed my family. If they weren't suitable to eat, then I would never kill them. Quote: My experience indicates, to me, they BT are basically Partitions with plastic tips. Wrong.. Your experience indicates to everyone now that you have no knowledge of Ballistic Tips Or Partitions....... Bottom line here is that Jarhead, had a bad day in the field and shared with us his dismay for certain types of bullets.... It Happens!! And many of us here are guilty of bad shots and thats why practice is Paramount....... Paramount........ __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

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January 30, 2013, 02:18 PM	#51
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	I'd bet a month pay you never thought this thread would garner so much attention. Holy Mackerel you got comments from the other side of the world!! Even the Staff his taken a hit for yaw. I'm not gonna Gee Gaw Yaw any longer. I figure if your old enough to pull the trigger you know whats going on. Semper Fi Brother. lol S/S

January 30, 2013, 02:22 PM	#52
JarheadHunter Member Join Date: October 8, 2012 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 24	Thank you for that information. That is another thing I was hoping to find out was the difference between the 2. I didnt buy the Z-max because of the zombie appeal, but becasue it seemed to be the same thign as the leverevolution and the z-max was actually cheeper when and where I purchased them.

January 30, 2013, 02:24 PM	#53
JarheadHunter Member Join Date: October 8, 2012 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 24	Sepmer Fidelis!

January 30, 2013, 04:31 PM	#54
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Yep, folks gut shoot game animals; no doubt about that. Many of those same folks blame the bullet even though the bullet is seldom at fault. Yep, i've gut shot game animals too. Went through a rash of that in 2008 when i gutshot several hogs and two deer. After long tracking and dragging jobs all were recovered. Even if the bullet fails to expand, a double lunged deer will very seldom travel more than 150 yards after being hit. Decades ago i hunted with .30 caliber US Army ball ammo: Killed dozens of deer with the stuff. When properly placed that ball ammo killed deer just as dead as those hit with soft point bullets. Last deer/elk season i tracked and recovered 14 deer and three elk for other hunters. Three hunters fessed up to making bad shots. Several hunters claimed they "double lunged" their animals and the bullet failed to expand. The coyotes beat us to five deer. Not one intact animal was "double lunged" and most intact animals were gutshot. Longest tracking job was about 2.5 kilometers. IMO: Most hunters cannot track wounded animals. Some blood trails last season were glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers. But the dog and i had fun: Also got a lot of good elk meat.

January 30, 2013, 08:50 PM	#56
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	The Zombie rounds are AMax bullets, which Hornady specifically states are not for game use. Hornady SSTs are game busters. The Leverloution line has been getting good reviews, also. You also never mentioned the caliber you were using.

January 30, 2013, 11:37 PM	#57
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I'm not sure of that GeauxTide. From what I've heard Hornady is starting to think of A-max as hunting bullets. Like I say, thats what I've heard. I could be wrong. But I think its what the Long Range Pursute guys are using. I know the couple A-max bullets I've seen used on elk performed like an absolute perfect hunting bullet.

January 31, 2013, 10:57 AM	#59
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Once again,it can be important,that fine Marlin has a tube magazine.The rubber pointy bullets are OK ,but other pointy bullets with hard tips,even plastic,are a bad idea in the tube.The pointy end finds the primer of the next round in the tube during recoil,it gets unhappy. You probably know that,but with the bullets we are talking about,wanted to make sure.

January 31, 2013, 05:55 PM	#62
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,164	Realistically speaking, bullet failures are a legitimate concern when taking deer with Cartridges such as the .220 Swift, .257 WBY, .264 Win Mag. etc. Poor bullet selection in one of these type cartridges can lead to game lost due to bullet failure, or more accurately stated "Game lost due to poor bullet selection." On the other hand, in a .30-30 WCF, you can shoot cast, Hollow point, round nose, leveroution, or whatever else you want barring the accelerator sabot and bullet failure is not going to happen on a deer.

January 31, 2013, 08:47 PM	#64
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,996	Reynolds357 is correct about using (not using) explosive bullets in rifles like the 220 Swift for deer. When I was host hunting (me being the host), I let the guests shoot deer, and I'd plug the occasional coyote with my 220. Well, if the ranch house got low on meat, they'd call me on the radio to shoot a doe. Often all I'd have was that 220, and it would have the old Nosler 55 grain Solid Base Boattails, which were less explosive than today's Ballistic Tips. It was iffy shooting deer with that bullet, so finally I'd just borrow a guest's rifle. Like so many others have said, ya gotta match the bullet to the job. I use a lot of BT's but I won't use a Varmint Ballistic Tip on a deer. Not anymore I won't. And I sure hope the OP isn't using those pointy hard plastic tipped bullets in the 336 tubular magazine. That's disaster waiting to happen.

February 1, 2013, 07:27 AM	#65
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 514	The 30-30 Zmax IS NOT the Amax bullet re packaged. It is the FTX, which is a deer slayer. Had the deer been hit in the vitals with this bullet it, you probably would have found blood and a dead deer nearby. The deer either wasnt hit in the vitals or wasnt tracked far enough due to thick cover. It happens...

February 1, 2013, 11:03 AM	#66
JarheadHunter Member Join Date: October 8, 2012 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 24	Being that the extended doe season in South Texas is over this weekend. I will be stuck to shooting only hogs untill I move. I will sight in with these remaining rounds (again) this weekend and when i go out for some piggy wiggy's I will post what happens.

February 1, 2013, 04:40 PM	#73
gunrunner1 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 111	My son and I both have Marlin MXLRs in .308 Marlin Express and both of us have shot a number of deer with them. I can tell you that the 160 grain flex tip bullet is absolutely devastating on deer. I have shot deer with a number of different calibers, and I have lost a few of them. Neither my son or I have lost a deer that was shot with the flex tip bullet.

February 2, 2013, 08:07 AM	#74
DiffyDoc Member Join Date: December 18, 2012 Posts: 22	By golly and shucks!!!!!! Y'all are going after something that just ain't there! JarHead shot twice and got hits. Maybe it is the bullet ant maybe it is the shooter. The 30-30 has probably killed more large game in North America than all the other calibers combined. It is a slow moving hard hitting round....regardless of the bullet type. My suggestion is this, shoot them in the 10-12 inches of the neck that extends from the shoulder and your game will always be right where you squeezed the trigger. They don't run off and make you HUNT them again. It has worked for me for the past 30 years and I use a little ole .243 with 100gr soft points on deer and elk. Success every time.