Humor in the use of force situations

Glenn E. Meyer · April 8, 2010, 09:27 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/wo...html?ref=world

This interesting - the idea being that humor adds in tension relief and also acting against inhibitions to kill. I've read the same thing about humor in books about doctors in training, trying to deal with the bad things they see.

NY Times has been having some interesting pieces lately on force usage issues.

Glenn

kraigwy · April 8, 2010, 09:55 AM

You have to interject humor or its gonna eat you up.

I also believe that Grossman's ON KILLING was required reading for cops then there would be more cops moving on into differant life upon retiring and less retirees eating their gun.

It also should be required for all soldiers.

I just wish Grossman's book was around after our SE Asia adventure and in 74 when I started in police work.

KingEdward · April 8, 2010, 09:55 AM

good article.

doesn't mention the other side that there could be insurgents
in a hollowed out hotel with an RPG aimed at the US copter
saying in arabic, "Look at those dead bastards".

Enoy21 · April 8, 2010, 10:18 AM

Yeah , A friend of mine and I were discussing this , and I knew upon watching the video that it would inflame those that cannot mentally or have not physically been put in that type of "Do or Die" situation. Especially for extended amounts of time such as a war.

Had that Video been shown without the editors commentary , I feel the view would have been much different. The power of suggestion is HUGE , especially to those that are so gung-ho Anti to anything that requires the use of force for safety.

fastbolt · April 9, 2010, 11:56 AM

Interesting article. Thanks for linking to it.

I especially thought the last couple of sentences might serve as illuminating and insightful to a number of folks, especially if someone has never found themselves in a dynamic, chaotic, rapidly changing dangerous situation.

I agree about the comment on Dave Grossman's book. Both of them, actually. On Combat & On Killing.

Another one which is a good read is Dr Lawrence Blum's Force Under Pressure - How Cops Live and Why They Die.

Jim March · April 9, 2010, 12:55 PM

On a bit of a tangent: a few cops are experimenting with using humor to defuse near-combat situations such as domestic violence calls. The most famous is the beat cop in San Francisco with the dummy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Geary_(police_officer)

A few other cops have also tried humor as a de-escalation tool.

troy_mclure · April 9, 2010, 02:05 PM

yep, the humor works.

after our first firefight(when we still recovered insurgents bodies) we were cracking jokes like: man this guy is a dead weight, etc...

it was overly hilarious.

we also used halo as a stress reliever too.

45Gunner · April 10, 2010, 08:58 AM

Picture this: You are doing a nasty job thousands of miles from home and you know that at any moment some moron you don't even know may shoot an AK-47 or rocket at you that will end your life. You will die without the benefit of family and in some far away stink hole that you wouldn't let your dog into for just a few minutes.

You grew up never thinking you would take another human life. Unless you have, you have no idea of what it feels like. And it is not a good feeling. How do you cope? Even when it's a kill or be killed scenario? Humor is the stress reliever. I can remember back in Vietnam when we had firefights. A few rare times, we outnumbered the enemy and it became a game as to which one of us got to shoot the moving target as opposed to the stationary targets. After the firefight, we reconned the area and saw sights that no human being should ever have to see.

Someone has to do it and those someones have to deal with the stress and cope with the aftermath their entire lives.

CWPinSC · April 10, 2010, 09:13 AM

While working with a local rescue squad, we had a call to a traffic accident. A young girl had come back from a party, drunk, and ran off the road. She was thrown out and the car rolled over her - NOT a pretty sight. We were riding in the ambulance to the morgue with the body, laying face down on the stretcher with a sheet over it, we were all depressed. One paramedic, to relieve the tension, looked down and remarked, "She had a nice butt." Outsiders would be shocked at remarks like this, but those who have been there know it's necessary to relieve the stress, tension, and depression.

JohnH1963 · April 10, 2010, 09:33 AM

Humor can be a career ruiner though and here is why...cameras and recording equipment.

In the "Wikileaks" Apache video, the pilots (who are officers in the Army) can be heard saying some unprofessional things. Even if shooting the men on the ground was the correct action, they could be prosecuted under the UCMJ for "Conduct Unbecoming..."

I have known many business owners who have hidden cameras all over their place of business...some of the cameras are in smoke detectors and generally hidden all over the place. They can record voice too. Then everyone out there has a cameraphone or other recording device. If you work for a police department, surely there are hidden cameras all over the place. One thing to remember is that even if there are no sound recording devices, the cameras can still pick up your mouth moving and they can hire someone to read your mouth.

Then there is trusting your co-workers. Can you trust your co-workers not to repeat what was said to someone above you? Anything your co-workers say to the bosses may impact an evaluation or performance report.

Then there is the youtube where videos go viral....

Whenever you say something while on any job...even in a place that considered private or with supposedly "trusted" co-workers...you have to know there is a possibility that someone is recording you or the information might be leaked by word of mouth to someone else. There are always unpredictable consequences...

Sefner · April 11, 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWPinSC

Outsiders would be shocked at remarks like this, but those who have been there know it's necessary to relieve the stress, tension, and depression.

I've been on the outside of the situation. One time in high school I job shadowed for our DA. We were in his office listening to him and another attorney talk about a rape case. As the conversation went on the details got more and more grim. All the sudden one of them cracks a joke about it. A rape case. Joking. The other guy laughed and the DA said "we gotta joke about it else it will drive us crazy". At first I was absolutely disgusted, but then I started thinking about it in this context. These guys have to deal with this every day and if they didn't have some humor, it may very well drive them to literal insanity. People in positions like this need to have humor.

Dr_2_B · April 11, 2010, 08:41 PM

Wow, I've done it right and I've done it wrong. As a psychotherapist I've used some black humor in some fairly difficult moments and it helped us break through some barriers. Also, I recall visiting a cancer patient when I was a pastor. I used a little very light humor then and it went over about like a fart in church with the others in the room... granted, my timing really wasn't the best then.

Hard to tell how the stuff's going to be perceived by others. Sometimes you're just using it for your own sanity... which is ok as long as it doesn't really cause someone pain. It's a tough call.

BeerSleeper · April 11, 2010, 08:55 PM

People are too damn sensitive. If I say something that offends you, fine. Be offended. Then GET THE F OVER IT and move on. I enjoy many fine varieties of humor, some of them horribly crude and/or distasteful. It's just humor. You can listen, laugh, and repeat a blonde/brunette/and a redhead joke, and it doesn't mean your sexist. You can tell a priest and a rabbi walk into a bar... and it's doesn't mean you have any hate toward any particular religious group. Even jokes based on ethnic stereotypes. Just don't be ignorant enough to think that something that is a joke has any greater meaning.

If it helps them to deal with the job they have to do, I salute them for it.

April 8, 2010, 09:27 AM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Humor in the use of force situations http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/wo...html?ref=world This interesting - the idea being that humor adds in tension relief and also acting against inhibitions to kill. I've read the same thing about humor in books about doctors in training, trying to deal with the bad things they see. NY Times has been having some interesting pieces lately on force usage issues. Glenn __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

April 8, 2010, 09:55 AM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	You have to interject humor or its gonna eat you up. I also believe that Grossman's ON KILLING was required reading for cops then there would be more cops moving on into differant life upon retiring and less retirees eating their gun. It also should be required for all soldiers. I just wish Grossman's book was around after our SE Asia adventure and in 74 when I started in police work. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 8, 2010, 09:55 AM	#3
KingEdward Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2009 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 439	good article. doesn't mention the other side that there could be insurgents in a hollowed out hotel with an RPG aimed at the US copter saying in arabic, "Look at those dead bastards". __________________ "It'll happen fast once I start" - Charlie Waite

April 8, 2010, 10:18 AM	#4
Enoy21 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2009 Posts: 240	Yeah , A friend of mine and I were discussing this , and I knew upon watching the video that it would inflame those that cannot mentally or have not physically been put in that type of "Do or Die" situation. Especially for extended amounts of time such as a war. Had that Video been shown without the editors commentary , I feel the view would have been much different. The power of suggestion is HUGE , especially to those that are so gung-ho Anti to anything that requires the use of force for safety. Last edited by Enoy21; April 8, 2010 at 12:42 PM.

April 9, 2010, 11:56 AM	#5
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	Interesting article. Thanks for linking to it. I especially thought the last couple of sentences might serve as illuminating and insightful to a number of folks, especially if someone has never found themselves in a dynamic, chaotic, rapidly changing dangerous situation. I agree about the comment on Dave Grossman's book. Both of them, actually. On Combat & On Killing. Another one which is a good read is Dr Lawrence Blum's Force Under Pressure - How Cops Live and Why They Die. __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

April 9, 2010, 12:55 PM	#6
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	On a bit of a tangent: a few cops are experimenting with using humor to defuse near-combat situations such as domestic violence calls. The most famous is the beat cop in San Francisco with the dummy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Geary_(police_officer) A few other cops have also tried humor as a de-escalation tool. __________________ Jim March

April 9, 2010, 02:05 PM	#7
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	yep, the humor works. after our first firefight(when we still recovered insurgents bodies) we were cracking jokes like: man this guy is a dead weight, etc... it was overly hilarious. we also used halo as a stress reliever too. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

April 10, 2010, 08:58 AM	#8
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Picture this: You are doing a nasty job thousands of miles from home and you know that at any moment some moron you don't even know may shoot an AK-47 or rocket at you that will end your life. You will die without the benefit of family and in some far away stink hole that you wouldn't let your dog into for just a few minutes. You grew up never thinking you would take another human life. Unless you have, you have no idea of what it feels like. And it is not a good feeling. How do you cope? Even when it's a kill or be killed scenario? Humor is the stress reliever. I can remember back in Vietnam when we had firefights. A few rare times, we outnumbered the enemy and it became a game as to which one of us got to shoot the moving target as opposed to the stationary targets. After the firefight, we reconned the area and saw sights that no human being should ever have to see. Someone has to do it and those someones have to deal with the stress and cope with the aftermath their entire lives. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

April 10, 2010, 09:13 AM	#9
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	While working with a local rescue squad, we had a call to a traffic accident. A young girl had come back from a party, drunk, and ran off the road. She was thrown out and the car rolled over her - NOT a pretty sight. We were riding in the ambulance to the morgue with the body, laying face down on the stretcher with a sheet over it, we were all depressed. One paramedic, to relieve the tension, looked down and remarked, "She had a nice butt." Outsiders would be shocked at remarks like this, but those who have been there know it's necessary to relieve the stress, tension, and depression.

April 10, 2010, 09:33 AM	#10
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	Humor can be a career ruiner though and here is why...cameras and recording equipment. In the "Wikileaks" Apache video, the pilots (who are officers in the Army) can be heard saying some unprofessional things. Even if shooting the men on the ground was the correct action, they could be prosecuted under the UCMJ for "Conduct Unbecoming..." I have known many business owners who have hidden cameras all over their place of business...some of the cameras are in smoke detectors and generally hidden all over the place. They can record voice too. Then everyone out there has a cameraphone or other recording device. If you work for a police department, surely there are hidden cameras all over the place. One thing to remember is that even if there are no sound recording devices, the cameras can still pick up your mouth moving and they can hire someone to read your mouth. Then there is trusting your co-workers. Can you trust your co-workers not to repeat what was said to someone above you? Anything your co-workers say to the bosses may impact an evaluation or performance report. Then there is the youtube where videos go viral.... Whenever you say something while on any job...even in a place that considered private or with supposedly "trusted" co-workers...you have to know there is a possibility that someone is recording you or the information might be leaked by word of mouth to someone else. There are always unpredictable consequences...

April 11, 2010, 08:41 PM	#12
Dr_2_B Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: midwest Posts: 502	Wow, I've done it right and I've done it wrong. As a psychotherapist I've used some black humor in some fairly difficult moments and it helped us break through some barriers. Also, I recall visiting a cancer patient when I was a pastor. I used a little very light humor then and it went over about like a fart in church with the others in the room... granted, my timing really wasn't the best then. Hard to tell how the stuff's going to be perceived by others. Sometimes you're just using it for your own sanity... which is ok as long as it doesn't really cause someone pain. It's a tough call.

April 11, 2010, 08:55 PM	#13
BeerSleeper Member Join Date: March 26, 2010 Posts: 40	People are too damn sensitive. If I say something that offends you, fine. Be offended. Then GET THE F OVER IT and move on. I enjoy many fine varieties of humor, some of them horribly crude and/or distasteful. It's just humor. You can listen, laugh, and repeat a blonde/brunette/and a redhead joke, and it doesn't mean your sexist. You can tell a priest and a rabbi walk into a bar... and it's doesn't mean you have any hate toward any particular religious group. Even jokes based on ethnic stereotypes. Just don't be ignorant enough to think that something that is a joke has any greater meaning. If it helps them to deal with the job they have to do, I salute them for it.