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Old March 17, 2018, 10:41 PM   #1
Ze52514
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Help with a dated 1759 powder horn please

Okay so I am new to this site and new to the powder horn. I’ve recently stumbled upon a beauty! I was needing a little assistance in making sure it’s legit, and I’ve had several antique places really interested but wouldn’t give me an idea of what it was worth. I was hoping you guys could help. I’m a collector of old bicycles and this was purchased when I picked up a few bikes. I hope you the pros could help assist me! I’m having a bit of problems uploading files :/
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Old March 17, 2018, 10:44 PM   #2
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It’s saying upload errors. If someone out there collects or has some serious knowledge and wants to help me out please send me a email or give me a call at(309) 202-2357 or [email protected] I’m going to try to figure out how to upload photos. Thanks again
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Old March 18, 2018, 03:38 PM   #3
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Just helping him post photos:

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File Type: jpg unnamed-1.jpg (95.5 KB, 304 views)
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Old March 18, 2018, 03:43 PM   #4
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2 more photos:

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Old March 18, 2018, 03:48 PM   #5
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Thank you for the help Randal. I appreciate it.
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Old March 18, 2018, 05:17 PM   #6
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It's hard to put a price on something like that because there's no provenance. It certainly looks old but somebody with experience would have to see it first hand.
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Old March 18, 2018, 05:31 PM   #7
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I agree and everyone that I’ve talked in person says I have something special but they tell me I’d have to have something like appraised professionally so there aren’t any errors. I have managed to find some info on the literature it says “Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense” and has a british arms around it. Thank you for your reply. Hope this may help.
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Old March 18, 2018, 05:36 PM   #8
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I made a knife from a sawblade and carved an antler into a beaver shape.
Lost it years ago up in Mendocino.

Many, many years later (like 20 or more), my friends were digging in their garden and found this old, old carved antler handle knife. Everyone in the area swore that it was ancient and from the 1890's seeing how pitted the metal was, and how dark the antler had become.

But my friends said that they thought that they knew where it came from and gave me a call, and I was happy to get my old knife back! Goes to show you that even though it looks old, it might have just been someone's handicraft.

The carvings and scribblings of the horse look fairly primative and done by an amatuer, so it isn't fine work. But to some, that would enhance the idea of something made in primative America.
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Old March 18, 2018, 05:50 PM   #9
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I totally understand. Basically I want to make sure when I do decide to offer this piece up for sale I don’t any mistakes on both sides. I want it to accurate. I think if it is in fact accurate with the date on it, it would be highly collectible. We will see .
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Old March 18, 2018, 06:04 PM   #10
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If the date is genuine and there's no way to prove that. It could just be a date that had some meaning to the maker.
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Old March 18, 2018, 06:17 PM   #11
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So the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom doesn’t have anything to do with that date you think?
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Old March 18, 2018, 06:24 PM   #12
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It's hand made. The maker could put anything he wanted to on it. Lots of guys that do fur trade impressions make horns very similar to that. I'm not saying it's fake. I'm just saying it's going to take an expert with hands on experience to tell you that I doubt even an expert could validate the date. If it is an original horn it has been stored really well for over 200 years for it not to have worm holes all in it.
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Old March 18, 2018, 06:33 PM   #13
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I appreciate your thoughts. If you know of any experts I can send this piece too I would definitely do so just to get some answers
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Old March 18, 2018, 06:50 PM   #14
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I have no idea on something like that.
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Old March 18, 2018, 07:38 PM   #15
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A real beauty and thanks

I'm no expert but do have a couple of question aside from reading the scrimshaw work, .....

1) What is the shape of the base-plug"?
2) What kind of bales does it have, if any?
3) What is "any" metal made of?
4) can you tell how the base is sealed, like beeswax?
5) Can you tell what was stored in the horn and can you smell any BP?
6) Does the untouched surface, show, light cracks or crazing.

The color is good and natural. It's a really neat horn and likely not as old as it states but still old. I have seen Salt, Rum, BP and grease horns. Horns were used for storing many materials. I do believe it's a BP powder horn and a real beauty? ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old March 18, 2018, 07:52 PM   #16
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If you can send me a email I will send you a lot more pics of it. I can’t seem to upload photos. Just says an error.

Shape of the base is round. The tip seems to be brass. I was told it was bp powder horn from others that smelled it. It has been nailed with square head nails that weren’t machine made. I could get you in depth pics of whatever you needed. My cell is(309) 202-2357 and my email is [email protected] thank you for your reply.
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Old March 19, 2018, 10:52 AM   #17
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Old March 19, 2018, 11:41 AM   #18
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I think obvious...

You need a matching rifle to go with that horn.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:01 PM   #19
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Can you type out what is written on the horn?

Here's a site that you may find interesting.
https://www.scribd.com/document/2882...ican-1700-1759
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Last edited by drobs; March 19, 2018 at 12:10 PM.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:12 PM   #20
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Yes I was able to get the phrase “honi Sai Mal y Pense” and distinguished it has the British code of arms.

That is a very interesting site. I’ll have to check it out a bit more after work.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:20 PM   #21
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Thank you for posting that the guy had a old gun that he has with it. But I have no idea what it is. I have a pic of it. I’ll have to see if Randal can upload that for me. I’m supposed to get the gun tonight. Cause someone else said it should have a gun. Lol. Let me see if I can get it uploaded and tell me what you guys think. thank you for the help.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:38 PM   #22
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The "PV" before 1759 -- feels like french...

Now I see the English crest.




The Lion is on the right side of the horn in this pic.


The unicorn is seen here:


“honi Sai Mal y Pense” is right off the english crest.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:58 PM   #23
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Don't mind me:

Here's a tie between the 1759 date and the crest:

This link goes to another horn:
https://hhscollections.wordpress.com...its-own-story/

"This phrase, “Honi soit qui mal y pense,” was also later the motto of the 35th Royal Sussex Regiment of Foot (an infantry regiment of the British army) which was established in 1701. The purpose of raising this particular regiment was to meet the rising threat of war with France, and the unit was sent to America to fight in the French and Indian War in 1756 (two years after it began). The unit served as one of the garrisoned troops at Fort William Henry in Lake George, NY and is remembered most for the events that happened there. In August of 1757 the 35th Foot, under command of Lieutenant-Colonel George Monro, was overwhelmed by French Forces and forced to surrender to General Montcalm. The unit was permitted to evacuate the fort with their weapons, but the Native American allies of the French were sent after them quickly. Native Americans attacked the retreating unit and their once organized march soon dissolved into chaos as many men fled into the woods and remained lost for a number of days. As a result of this fateful day at Fort Henry, 185 soldiers in the 35th Foot were killed and many more were wounded. This somewhat traumatic event was later depicted in James Fenimore Cooper’s book Last of the Mohicans (1826), and recreated on the silver screen in the 1992 film of the same name.

Luckily, the 35th Foot had its opportunity for revenge against General Montcalm when, in1759, they fought as part of General Wolfe’s army at the Battle of Quebec. With their steady fire, the 35th was able to break the Régiment Royal Roussillon (a French infantry unit) and run the French out of the same Fort that had been taken from them just two years earlier.

After understanding the story of the 35th Foot and its important role in the events surrounding Fort Henry, James Graham’s powder horn begins to make much more sense. Although we cannot say for certain, it is highly likely that much of the design on the powder horn was inspired by Graham’s own experience with the 35th regiment. It is highly likely that Graham was a soldier in the 35th and could have easily been a part of the unit during the surrender of Fort Henry, the Battle of Quebec, and several other military conquests that were carried out by the British during the French & Indian War. This powder horn, whether it was made during the War or right after, continues to serve as a visual diary of specific places and events that were important to its owner. Regardless of his level of involvement, it is clear that James Graham took the 35th Regiment’s motto to heart; his detailed, delicate, and carefully designed engravings are physical reminders of this soldiers’ journey, and more importantly, his devotion to his brothers in arms."


Is the number 35 anywhere on the horn?

"PV" might stand for "present"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...ary/english/pv
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Last edited by drobs; March 19, 2018 at 01:09 PM.
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Old March 19, 2018, 12:59 PM   #24
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Yes and the guy seemed to be illiterate cause he made spelling errors. In the Pense.

When you say it’s obvious what do you mean by that? To me I think it’s really old. But I’m not an expert what so ever. Thank you for taking the time in the help.
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Old March 19, 2018, 01:02 PM   #25
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Now that is a wealth of information. I really appreciate that. I knew there was a story and it makes more sense. Thank you again!
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