Can anyone tell me about the CVA made 1858 Remington?

[9245]

I recently decided to get an 1858 Remington reproduction, finding them out of stock everywhere I looked I turned to Gunbroker, not sure how badly I overpaid, but it was “cheap” compared to the going scalpers price on the things, seriously, I saw some of them for like $800 and up.

Unfortunately though the one I found is from CVA and I know they only imported it, not made it, and it does not say who actually made it, only “made in Italy.”

I would like to know though so I know which parts to get if I have to fix anything, I’d also like to get proper number 11 nipples from Track of the Wolf and eventually a conversion cylinder, but I can’t do any of that until I find out who made it.

I contacted CVA and they just said it was made sometime before 1999 and that they have no records, instructions, or parts.

Does anyone know who made these? Are they any good?

I don’t have it yet, but here’e a link to the closed auction listing that has pictures:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890352805

[bladesmith 1]

Go to www.1858remingtonfourm.com There's a wealth of info there. You want to scroll down to 1858 Remington Revolvers forum.

[9245]

That link to the Remington forum does not work

[Pahoo]

Does anyone know who made these? Are they any good?

My SWAG mon this or default would be Pietta or Uberti. I recently acquired a Hawes import and it too, only lists that it was made in Italy. I would have thought that CVA could have been more helpful than this, as their records should at least, state where they were being made. ......

Does anyone know who made these? Are they any good?

Not sure how you make this measure but most were "good" enough. You have to evaluate the details and you are going to have to do more searching on this. Look at all the flat barrel surfaces for any additional stampings. .....

I would add that many of these were imported in "Kit" form. These are easy to spot......

Good Luck !!!

[9245]

“CVA’s” excuse was that they, the parent company, “BPI,” took over CVA in 1999 and do not have records before that time.

[9245]

I have been doing some searching and found some OLD forum posts that mention it in passing and suggest that it may be either Pietta (for “the newer ones,”) or Armi San Marco, or Euro Arms, I have no idea how accurate that information is however as I found conflicting sets of information. All sets suggested looking for the companies logo ahead of the trigger guard on the bottom, but I magnified that area in the auction photo and do not see logos, only what looks like proof marks, the sources also suggested looking for a two character date code on the side but I see no such code in the pictures, however I do see something amid the proof marks that appears to be the code as described (two letters in a rectangle), and if that’s what it is and I’m reading it right that would indicate that it was made in 1989, though I have no idea if that would make it one of the “newer ones” or one of the “older ones,” or even if there is actually any difference at all. This is frustrating.

[AKexpat]

Photo #5 on the auction site page gives you what you want to know. It is an Armi San Marco with a date code AU/1989 (in the rectangle).







If you think this revolver is frustrating, stick around. This one was easy-peasy. Wait until you buy one of the early (60's-70's) from many of the obscure Northern Italian manufacturers.


Regards,

Jim

[AKexpat]

Armi San Marco was in business from ~1963 until ~2002 when they folded. ASM was known for creating many revolvers (Colt Pockets, Dragoons, Navies, Armies, et al, as well as some Remingtons) that were more historically correct than their main competitors, Uberti and Pietta. There are some folks that say that ASM guns were made of softer steel than their competitors, but I have not found that to be true until the very late models (1996 and later). In addition to marketing revolvers under their own name, ASM would contract with US importers like CVA in the late 60's and on. That is when ASM decided to place the proof marks, date code, and ASM logo on the bottom of the frame near the barrel lug. That left the importer to stamp their logo/billboards on the frame and barrel.

Insofar as parts, they are pretty much non-existent. When ASM folded the vast majority of their parts were sold to VTI and a couple of other purveyors, and stocks are almost nil. There is a bright side: read on.

I had a Replica Arms El Paso Texas XIX/1963 Colt 1848 Pocket .31 5-shot 6" barrel squareback TG that was nearly perfect historically, but I sold it as it was way too small for my hand. I have an ASM 1860 Army .44 cased set (BD/1994) that is very nice that I put together over a year's time a couple of years ago. I wanted a full-fluted cylinder for it, and after much careful measuring I decided to take a chance on a cylinder from Uberti. It fit like a glove! There have been reports that a niece of Aldo Uberti was in ASM management, so there may be a remote correlation there. I would use Uberti parts as a source for your revolver if any are needed. They may have to be hand-fitted.

Regards,

Jim

[9245]

Thank you! Now at least I know what I’m dealing with, sort of anyway, are they even still in business? Are/were they any good?

Now I just need to find parts... Does anyone carry any? Does anyone make cartridge conversion cylinders? Carry spare cylinders? (I want at least 2) Number 11 nipples?

Edit: Wow, you answered my questions seconds before I finished typing them. Lol

I can’t say I’m crazy about hand fitting parts, assuming I can find a gunsmith to do it, (by the way, do you happen to know one?) I imagine the work will probably cost 5 times the parts... I do like that it’s more historically accurate though Does it have the same issue of the loading area sometimes not liking conicals that Uberti and Pietta do though?

I’d really love to find one of those stocks too.

[AKexpat]

I have no idea about loading conicals as I don't own a Remmy.

That shoulder stock is one of a kind, IMO. It is tiger stripe maple stained dark. The wood under the furniture is blonde maple. If you can find one during these pandemic days, it will most likely be straight-grained quarter-sawn walnut, and if you are lucky it will be flat-sawn walnut showing a bit of figure. I have not seen any for sale in the last year because of the sparse-to-non-production from Pietta due to Covid-19. Uberti and Pietta are hard pressed just to produce a few revolvers for the market. I expect that will be the case until 2022 or later.

Good luck in your endevors with your new revolver. Just take it slow and easy and entertain any ideas you may come across, and don't be in a hurry.

Regards,

Jim

[Rachen]

1858 Remingtons are out of stock everywhere???

Wow... That definitely has something to do with the ammo shortage, I assume. People just wanting something, anything to protect themselves for the rough near future ahead. Can also be the result of apprehension over HB127, which seeks to regulate 'antiques' as firearms and subject them to modern licensing requirements too.

[9245]

They are indeed, I couldn’t believe it. Percussion caps are gone too, I assumed that was because the companies that make them are putting all their production in to primers right now, but the revolvers themselves being out shocked me. There are no bullet molds either.

Thankfully I ordered a percussion cap maker so will be able to make my own from empty pop cans, and I can improvise a priming compound to fill them. I DO still badly need a mold though, I ordered 100 pre cast balls but I figure those will run out soon too, I’ll need the mold to be self sufficient, I can make my own black powder too.

You actually hit on one of the main reasons why I want this and the extra cylinders too. Yes I want this as a collectable and fun shooter and to get in to black powder but this is also my fallback should I completely run out of ammo and not be able to get more, I think we are already nearly there. I have my ready and reserve ammunition but my range ammo is basically gone now and I have to resort to recycling primers and canibalizing other rounds, just to get enough for a short range trip. I can see the day when components of any type will be impossible to find and I will have to make my own from scratch, I can cast bullets (if I can actually find some damned molds), I can make black powder, and if I’m desperate and daring enough I can recycle spent primers and build number 11 percussion caps, but I can’t make my own brass or build new primers, if the day comes that I have to this will become my new primary non defensive firearm, and if it gets really bad and I exhaust my defensive, emergency, and reserve ammo this will become my daily carry.

I get the feeling that I am not the only one with that thought process, plus at least unless or until the communists change the rules, these can be ordered direct to your door with no paper trail, lots of people find that appealing right now, especially if they can’t build an 80%.

Add a cartridge conversion cylinder and you basically have a modern revolver, albeit with a different reload process, and on that note, no cap and ball revolver will reload like a Remington with a hot swap.

Shortages, virus panic, riots, anti gun politicians, maybe approaching civil war, it’s understandable and ironic that these would be selling out now, just back in time for round two?

On that note, can anyone please point me in the direction of some bullet molds? I’d prefer .454 (without having gotten to actually run anything through it yet),

[44 Dave]

That Remie looks good. I have a 1849 that needed a bolt/trigger spring, Uberti spring was way off. But Remington and full size Colts would be closer fit, do know a Uberti '60 cylinder will fit an original Colt.

[Hawg]

It should have a makers mark on it somewhere. Look on the bottom barrel flat under the loading lever.

[9245]

I found some Piettas in stock, I pretty much just said screw it and ordered one. I’ll just end up eating the cost of the other one, it’s a spare if nothing else I guess, a New York Reload.

Researching this, the only spare cylinders I could find were about $170, and they were NOT conversion cylinders, just standard cap and ball, conversion cylinders were non existant, I found one company willing to modify one of the 5 shot cylinders to fit for an extra $80 but why would I want to go from 6 to 5? I have never understood the point of those 5 shot cylinders, just why? They had 6 shot .22lr cylinders that would work but that also falls under the pointless category, for me and my purposes anyway. I checked with a gunsmith about the cost of modifying a Pietta cylinder to work and he said it would be at minimum $120, and possibly more depending on how off the timing was. The other companies I talked to were adamant that an Uberti cylinder would be too short and the barrel would have to be moved in and retimed to work.

Other parts, if I need them, were basically non existent.

I’ve yet to receive the CVA one, but when I do it will basically be a dedicated cap and ball only and non hot swappable, so basically as useful as a Colt. The whole reason I went with the 1858 instead of a Dragoon or Walker was the hot swappable cylinder...

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by 9245

I found one company willing to modify one of the 5 shot cylinders to fit for an extra $80 but why would I want to go from 6 to 5?

Because the chamber walls are too thin. You would have to angle the chambers to get it to hold six which is what Howell did.

[44 Dave]

Also with out the angle the rims of a .45 in a Colt cylinder won't clear.

[9245]

How would that work? Doesn’t the have the bullet going in to the forcing cone cockeyed?

What about .44 Colt cartridges?

How were the original cartridge conversions done? How many did they hold?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 9245

How were the original cartridge conversions done? How many did they hold?

The original conversions -- at least, the Colt Richards-Mason conversions -- didn't fire the cartridge we know today as .45 Colt. They fired something that's today know as ".44 Colt (Original)". In boring out the cylinders for metallic cartridges, they didn't enlarge the bores to accept inside lubricated cartridges with a case diameter of .480". They bored them straight through, at the bullet diameter of +/- .454". The bullets were the standard .454" but they were heeled bullets -- like .22 LR -- with the bullet base reduced in diameter so the OD of the case was the same as the OD of the bullet.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/44_Colt_original.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt

As Hawg pointed out, the bores in the Howells (R&D, and Taylors) .45 Colt conversion cylinders are at a very slight angle. This had to be done in order to get enough clearance for the rims to not be an interference fit. The angle is only a few degrees and isn't enough to prevent the bullets from making the jump from the cylinder to the forcing code and into the barrel. However, I doubt that you'll ever see bullseye accuracy from them.

The Howells and Tayloir conversions both use a removable back plate with six (or five) individual firing pins, so reloading requires removing the cylinder from the pistol, removing the back plate, manually ejecting the empty cases, reloading, reinstalling the back pate, and putting the cylinder back in the gun. With practice, you can probably do it in about the same time it took me to type all that. On the other hand, the Kirst Konverters (five shot only) have a separate loading gate, so you can open up the capping notch on the right side of the frame and have a gun that reloads just like a "modern" 1873 Colt SAA. You aren't really giving anything up with the 5-shot Kirst Konverter, since those old six shooters were generally carried with one cylinder empty (although the Remingtons did have carry notches between the bores, for safe carry with all six loaded). The Kirst cylinders, IIRC, are unevenly spaced, so the sixth space is smaller/narrower (in angle) than the other five, and provides a safe location for the hammer when carrying the gun loaded.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by 9245

How were the original cartridge conversions done? How many did they hold?

The first Remington army conversions were five shot .46 caliber

[bladesmith 1]

The correct forum address for 1858 Remingtons is www.1858remington.com