What Qualifies as a C&R Firearm?

Thiokol · January 30, 2021, 01:33 PM

I posted a WTS ad with one of the revolvers having been shipped in 1969, which to me qualifies it as a C&R. The BATFE is pretty explicit as to what constitutes a C&R eligible firearm. However, another member, has posted in my WTS ad that a firearm must be on the published list of C&R firearms to qualify as a C&R. With another firearm turning 50 years of age virtually every day, it would be a complete impossibility for the BATFE to update the list daily.

Here's the link to the BATFE's website that explains what qualifies as a C&R: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what...relic-firearms

Am I right or is the other guy right?

Thanks for your help.

jar · January 30, 2021, 02:21 PM

You are right. It must be 50 years old OR appear on the list of C&R handguns.

Scorch · January 30, 2021, 05:21 PM

The reason it's 50 years old OR on the published list is that many collectible guns less than 50 years old which will not likely ever be fired due to the value have been added to the list at the request of collectors' groups.

Thiokol · January 30, 2021, 05:31 PM

I agree 100% with both of you. The guy that posted in my WTS thread obviously has no idea of what he's talking about when he says that it has to be at least 50 years old AND on the published list.

Onward Allusion · January 30, 2021, 05:41 PM

You gotta realize that most people - even FFL holders do not know the 50 year rule. Most of those in the business think they need to adhere to 'the" list promulgated by the ATF. That's why most FFL's will refuse to deal with C&R holders. They think they gotta check it against some magical list. The other excuse for sellers not to accept C&R is that there is no easy way to verify the legitimacy of a FFL 03. This is also a misconception. One can simply call 1-877-560-2435 to validate a 03. Yes, I had a 03. No need for one, however. Too many toys and not enough time.

Thiokol · January 30, 2021, 05:57 PM

Correct, but the guy claiming that it has to 50 years old AND on the published list claims that he has a C&R license. If he actually does have a C&R license, he should know that he was spreading false information.

gonzogeezer · January 30, 2021, 07:09 PM

It most also remain unmodified to be C&R.

One challenge is to verify the date of manufacture. Not all the old timers we covet have very good records available.

Screwball · January 30, 2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thiokol

Correct, but the guy claiming that it has to 50 years old AND on the published list claims that he has a C&R license. If he actually does have a C&R license, he should know that he was spreading false information.

That is correct... the CZ-82 is a perfect example. If someone sends a gun into the ATF, and argues it’s historical significance... they can amend the list for that firearm. If not, it becomes C&R once it is 50 years old.

However, a seller can look to handle the sale in whatever way they want. The gun could be clearly C&R, and they want it to go through a FFL-01... that is “correct.” Nobody HAS to recognize your C&R license... including other FFL-03 holders.

If they have a firearm that is on that list, yet is under 50 years, they can say they want it to go through an FFL-01. That is their prerogative as a seller of said firearm. If you want the gun, have it transferred to you from the FFL-01. Or buy elsewhere.

Thiokol · January 30, 2021, 07:47 PM

I think you may have missed the point of my post. I had a S&W Model 15-3 revolver that was shipped in 1969, clearly C&R eligible, posted in the classifieds. Another member posted in my thread saying that it didn't qualify as a C&R because the Model 15 is not specifically mentioned on the BATFE's list of C&R approved firearms. He wasn't the buyer or the receiving FFL. Rather he simply wanted to spread false information about what constitutes C&R eligibility.

jonnyc · January 30, 2021, 07:58 PM

Ask the Mods to delete his misinformation.

Eazyeach · January 30, 2021, 08:56 PM

Let it go dude. Who gives a rip? And you were quite rude to the other guy in your other post. Someone can be wrong and not have ill intent. You need to chill out.

Thiokol · January 30, 2021, 09:18 PM

He posted in a WTS ad. If he took exception to anything that was in the ad, he should have contacted me via PM and we could have worked it out. Instead he chose to post his misinformation publicly and possibly sabotaging a sale.

jonnyc · January 30, 2021, 11:40 PM

Bingo!
All the blame goes to the ijit who posted misinformation on another's WTS thread. I was surprised at how civil the smack-down actually was!

Grant 14 · February 19, 2021, 07:36 PM

I have several rifles that are WW2 military that were sporterised in the 50s. Yes, they are a modified military, but they were modified more than 50 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this situation? Just curious? Grant

ghbucky · February 20, 2021, 02:12 PM

Quote:

I have several rifles that are WW2 military that were sporterised in the 50s

I was just coming here to ask a similar question. Is my M1 carbine that was modified post-war considered a C&R, or does that modification forever remove it from C&R category?

Scorch · February 20, 2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Is my M1 carbine that was modified post-war considered a C&R, or does that modification forever remove it from C&R category?

50 years from modification, I believe. The logic is that the firearm has been brought up to date and is therefore like a newer gun. So even my original, made in 1905 Winchester 1885 High Wall that I rebarreled in 40-70 WCF is technically not a C&R firearm because I "updated" it.

tango1niner · February 20, 2021, 05:50 PM

Last year I posed this question to a BATFE field office in Buffalo, NY. The response was that the firearm had to be configured as it left the factory in order to qualify as C&R eligible. Sounded pretty simple to me...

Don't be afraid to call these people, the folks I spoke with were more than willing to help.

RC20 · February 22, 2021, 03:47 PM

Its a good one to get cleared up so I thank the OP

That said, I won't send a gun to a C&R unless its on the list.

That is my choice but its a choice not a legality. A pistol falls well inside that category of iffy, I want a background check done.

And yes I know of one case where a guy tried to game the system.

sfwusc · February 23, 2021, 10:28 PM

If it was modified then I would say it isn’t C&R anymore. How do you prove the date of changes?

If it was made 2/23/1971 or before it is C&R.

Armybrat · February 24, 2021, 04:28 PM

What is the advantage of having a firearm that is classified as a C&R as far as selling, shipping, or transferring it?
I have no knowledge about the topic.

jonnyc · February 24, 2021, 05:07 PM

The advantages are all on the receiving end.

RC20 · February 24, 2021, 08:17 PM

C&R is easy to get and if you deal in older guns saves lots of FFL fees.

sfwusc · February 24, 2021, 08:22 PM

For $30 for 3 years —- you can buy C&R firearms without dealing with FFLs.

I do most of my purchases instate private party so no FFL needed either.

Armybrat · March 1, 2021, 01:00 PM

Thanks, I was unaware of any of that.

jonnyc · March 3, 2021, 09:06 PM

Yes, very.

January 30, 2021, 01:33 PM	#1
Thiokol member Join Date: March 29, 2006 Location: Northeast Illinois Posts: 67	What Qualifies as a C&R Firearm? I posted a WTS ad with one of the revolvers having been shipped in 1969, which to me qualifies it as a C&R. The BATFE is pretty explicit as to what constitutes a C&R eligible firearm. However, another member, has posted in my WTS ad that a firearm must be on the published list of C&R firearms to qualify as a C&R. With another firearm turning 50 years of age virtually every day, it would be a complete impossibility for the BATFE to update the list daily. Here's the link to the BATFE's website that explains what qualifies as a C&R: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what...relic-firearms Am I right or is the other guy right? Thanks for your help.

January 30, 2021, 02:21 PM	#2
jar Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2001 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 1,669	You are right. It must be 50 years old OR appear on the list of C&R handguns. __________________ To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!

January 30, 2021, 05:21 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The reason it's 50 years old OR on the published list is that many collectible guns less than 50 years old which will not likely ever be fired due to the value have been added to the list at the request of collectors' groups. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 30, 2021, 05:41 PM	#5
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	You gotta realize that most people - even FFL holders do not know the 50 year rule. Most of those in the business think they need to adhere to 'the" list promulgated by the ATF. That's why most FFL's will refuse to deal with C&R holders. They think they gotta check it against some magical list. The other excuse for sellers not to accept C&R is that there is no easy way to verify the legitimacy of a FFL 03. This is also a misconception. One can simply call 1-877-560-2435 to validate a 03. Yes, I had a 03. No need for one, however. Too many toys and not enough time. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

January 30, 2021, 07:58 PM	#10
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	Ask the Mods to delete his misinformation. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

January 30, 2021, 05:31 PM	#4
Thiokol member Join Date: March 29, 2006 Location: Northeast Illinois Posts: 67	I agree 100% with both of you. The guy that posted in my WTS thread obviously has no idea of what he's talking about when he says that it has to be at least 50 years old AND on the published list.

January 30, 2021, 05:57 PM	#6
Thiokol member Join Date: March 29, 2006 Location: Northeast Illinois Posts: 67	Correct, but the guy claiming that it has to 50 years old AND on the published list claims that he has a C&R license. If he actually does have a C&R license, he should know that he was spreading false information.

January 30, 2021, 07:09 PM	#7
gonzogeezer Member Join Date: March 18, 2014 Posts: 74	It most also remain unmodified to be C&R. One challenge is to verify the date of manufacture. Not all the old timers we covet have very good records available.

January 30, 2021, 07:47 PM	#9
Thiokol member Join Date: March 29, 2006 Location: Northeast Illinois Posts: 67	I think you may have missed the point of my post. I had a S&W Model 15-3 revolver that was shipped in 1969, clearly C&R eligible, posted in the classifieds. Another member posted in my thread saying that it didn't qualify as a C&R because the Model 15 is not specifically mentioned on the BATFE's list of C&R approved firearms. He wasn't the buyer or the receiving FFL. Rather he simply wanted to spread false information about what constitutes C&R eligibility.

January 30, 2021, 08:56 PM	#11
Eazyeach Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2014 Posts: 706	Let it go dude. Who gives a rip? And you were quite rude to the other guy in your other post. Someone can be wrong and not have ill intent. You need to chill out.

January 30, 2021, 09:18 PM	#12
Thiokol member Join Date: March 29, 2006 Location: Northeast Illinois Posts: 67	He posted in a WTS ad. If he took exception to anything that was in the ad, he should have contacted me via PM and we could have worked it out. Instead he chose to post his misinformation publicly and possibly sabotaging a sale. Last edited by Thiokol; January 30, 2021 at 09:31 PM.

January 30, 2021, 11:40 PM	#13
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	Bingo! All the blame goes to the ijit who posted misinformation on another's WTS thread. I was surprised at how civil the smack-down actually was! __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

February 19, 2021, 07:36 PM	#14
Grant 14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2018 Posts: 167	I have several rifles that are WW2 military that were sporterised in the 50s. Yes, they are a modified military, but they were modified more than 50 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this situation? Just curious? Grant

February 20, 2021, 05:50 PM	#17
tango1niner Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: NY Posts: 317	Last year I posed this question to a BATFE field office in Buffalo, NY. The response was that the firearm had to be configured as it left the factory in order to qualify as C&R eligible. Sounded pretty simple to me... Don't be afraid to call these people, the folks I spoke with were more than willing to help.

February 22, 2021, 03:47 PM	#18
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Its a good one to get cleared up so I thank the OP That said, I won't send a gun to a C&R unless its on the list. That is my choice but its a choice not a legality. A pistol falls well inside that category of iffy, I want a background check done. And yes I know of one case where a guy tried to game the system. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

February 23, 2021, 10:28 PM	#19
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	If it was modified then I would say it isn’t C&R anymore. How do you prove the date of changes? If it was made 2/23/1971 or before it is C&R.

February 24, 2021, 04:28 PM	#20
Armybrat Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Round Rock, Texas Posts: 976	What is the advantage of having a firearm that is classified as a C&R as far as selling, shipping, or transferring it? I have no knowledge about the topic.

February 24, 2021, 05:07 PM	#21
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	The advantages are all on the receiving end. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

February 24, 2021, 08:17 PM	#22
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	C&R is easy to get and if you deal in older guns saves lots of FFL fees. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

February 24, 2021, 08:22 PM	#23
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	For $30 for 3 years —- you can buy C&R firearms without dealing with FFLs. I do most of my purchases instate private party so no FFL needed either.

March 1, 2021, 01:00 PM	#24
Armybrat Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Round Rock, Texas Posts: 976	Thanks, I was unaware of any of that.

March 3, 2021, 09:06 PM	#25
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	Yes, very. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.