Cocked and locked baby!

[easyG]

The issue of cocked and locked isn't about the odds of you encountering the enemy...which may be small. The issue is about the odds of losing precious time if you ever have to use your gun....which at the time of use is 100%.

Maybe you did not read all of this thread?

It's about weighing the risks of keeping a cocked-and-locked SA pistol in a home with children vs carrying a pistol with a loaded magazine and empty chamber.

If you live alone with no kids, or if you're married to a wife who knows how to shoot and have no kids, then I would see nothing wrong with keeping your pistol cocked-and-locked.
But if you have children in the house it's just not worth the risk.

I have read articles by criminals that state that they intentionally go to places where people are at ease and less likely to be armed.

Just because you're not carrying cocked-and-locked it does not mean that you're "at ease" and unarmed.
Now THAT'S a fatal assumption!

[vox rationis]

f your attacker "knows what he's doing", and get's the drop on you, you'll never even know it....you'll just be dead or unconscious, cocked-and-locked or not.

But again, the average U.S. citizen does not have to worry much about ninjas jumping from the roof or from the shadows in a surprise attack.

No, but the average US citizen does have to worry about a criminal bent on brutalizing and robbing him/her jumping out of the bushes in a surprise attack. That's what criminals do, they mostly attack by surprise. And even if it is an unplanned attack of opportunism, say some guy decides to intimidate/attack you at the ATM, or in a parking lot, chances are high that he'll be able to approach you to within conversational distance, or close thereto. If he wants to place your safety in danger, having to fumble with racking the slide considerably lessens your chances of being able to use your gun successfully for self-defense.

And as far as their skill is concerned, I think it is better to assume that the attacker "knows what he's doing" because more often than not they do know what they are doing, they are criminals, and I for one wouldn't want to be hopeful that they are weak understudies, chances are, they've done this before. What is it, like 15% of the criminals do 80% of crimes or something like that.

Lastly, based on the latest FBI data on armed criminals:

--show signs of being armed that officers miss;

--have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;

--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

http://www.policeone.com/writers/col...icles/1243754/

So we aren't cops and hopefully we can avert confrontations with these very dangerous criminals that will also hopefully not choose to target us (it is better to be lucky than good), but if you carry a gun to protect your life wouldn't you want to carry it in a safe method that also allows you to deploy it in the safest AND quickest manner possible? If not, what's the point of even carrying the weapon, unless in an extremely low threat area, and even then, if you are trained, which you should be, and the gun is carried in a proper and safe manner, which should be the case, why not carry it C&L?

I can't think of one good argument against carrying C&L, except for not doing so in your house if you have kids that are too young or unreliable to be educated and trained, in which case a safety lock box would be the better option anyway, and in that case one might opt for C&L anyway since the gun will be in the lock box. Or if you carry it relatively unsecured in Mexican Carry or in a brief case or something.

[Lurper]

You must live in a really dangerous place for you to believe that carrying with a empty chamber and loaded magazine is risking the lives of your family.

Where I live has nothing to do with it. The fact that I have been in more than my share of confrontations has everything to do with it. In an armed confrontation, every milisecond counts. The amount of time it takes to rack the slide can make the difference between life and death.

Maybe you did not read all of this thread?

It's about weighing the risks of keeping a cocked-and-locked SA pistol in a home with children vs carrying a pistol with a loaded magazine and empty chamber

Since he is the original poster, I think he probably has a good grasp of what the issue is. They are two seperate issues which you are now blurring. Again, there is no evidence to support the contention that:

C&L is less safe than any other type of action w/a round in the chamber

SA autos are less safe in storage than any other type of action

That every situation unfolds slowly enough that you will have the luxury of time enough to rack the slide before you need to shoot.

That by carrying C&L I am somehow putting myself and family at greater risk.

There is no need to carry in "nice neighborhoods" (like to ask Sharon Tate?).

Your argument just doesn't hold water.

[easyG]

Never mind.

[parrothead2581]

If in public it's C&L. I believe that was the main point of this thread.

At home with kids in the house and you don't conceal it on you ...well, I may have to give that one to easyg, but only because of the lack of responsibility of, unfortunately, a lot of folks.

If a gun is loaded, it's either on my person, or locked away. I'm not much for loading and unloading everyday as that would only seem to increase your chances of an ND.

Funny how I got the latest issue of Guns and Ammo today and it addresses that same topic (home storage).

[ilikesa]

Even though its just a movie, I think that Collateral gave a good example where a LOADED gun saved his life...his other hand was busy pushing the BGs gun away.

Also, if you are not carrying with one in the chamber, there is a possibilty, no matter how remote, of Murphy smiling on you as you have a jam when loading it. I want things to be as simple and streamlined as possible, and for me, CL is that.

[newarcher]

Like I said much earlier, I am not going to diss anyone about the way they carry.

For me, I just realized:

1) I can carry it C&L safely
2) I put it in the safe and hide the key on ME until bedtime
3) If I ever have to employ the gun, it will be an emergency with no time to spare.
4) If ever in a fight for life, my left hand (I am a right handed person) will probably be used for some sort of defense.
5) If I have to chamber a round in a fight....at the very minimum....I have to take my mental attention off the bad guy or guys if not my eyes off them also.
6) If in an emergency, I will probably short cycle the slide and jam myself.

JMHO.

Not dissing anyone who carries differently, just discussing.

New

[Johannes_Paulsen]

I was going to post a longer message, but newarcher more or less said what I wanted to say.

I'll just add that I carry a Kahr MK9 with one in the chamber (I guess that's "condition zero", as there's no safety). Given that time, money, and resources are limited, I do not train to carry it "Israeli-style", nor do I intend to. I do agree that military forces do things in certain ways for certain reasons, and those reasons are not always applicable to civilian self-defense situations. And also, given the small size/relative 'tightness' of the Kahr, I'd be worried that I'd screw something up if trying to chamber a round in a panic situation.

If someone wants to carry a different way, then they are an adult and are free to do what they wish per their own values and judgments, particularly with respect to their own skill level/personal comfort level -- not to mention the peculiarities of their equipment.

And I would also agree that the idea that there is "one right way" to do anything in every context is fatuous.

[vox rationis]

newarcher, had you posted your succinct and cogent response before, I wouldn't have flapped my gums the way I did with my previous posts

[easyG]

2) I put it in the safe and hide the key on ME until bedtime

Good.
And I sincerely hope that you never make a mistake.
Because all it takes is for you to not close that safe all the way...or take the key off just for a minute...just once.

3) If I ever have to employ the gun, it will be an emergency with no time to spare.

Time enough for you to get your pistol out of your safe, but not time enough to chamber a round???

4) If ever in a fight for life, my left hand (I am a right handed person) will probably be used for some sort of defense.
5) If I have to chamber a round in a fight....at the very minimum....I have to take my mental attention off the bad guy or guys if not my eyes off them also.

No, you chamber a round right when you determine that you had better get your pistol...not after you are already fighting or confronting the possible threat.

For example:
You hear a noise in the night that wakes you.
You pick up your pistol, chamber a round, and investigate the source of the noise.

6) If in an emergency, I will probably short cycle the slide and jam myself.

Not likely.
But if you think that you might then you need to practice more.



I wonder...do you keep your rifles and shotguns cocked-and-locked 24/7?

[ilikesa]

"I wonder...do you keep your rifles and shotguns cocked-and-locked 24/7?"

I do. Theres no reason not to.

I disagree with putting the guns into the safe. The safest place is on you. I dont have kids, so when I wake up, I reach over, get my pistol, and put it on. Sometimes you just dont have time, especially if you get ambushed.

Call me paranoid, but you can be paranoid and wrong plenty of times....or you might be fighting for your life next time.

[bcarver]

I often felt uneasy carrying a 1911 cocked . I felt the safety could get pushed down and the trigger could be bumped on the draw. but having the beavertail safety and pondering that all three could happen at the same time I feel safe carrying this way(cocked).
However before I decided to carry this way I did some research. I discovered that the Masada carry with the chamber empty. and through their training and more training they become wickedly fast on the draw and fire.
If you are seriously looking for a way to carry find a video of their training.

[gvf]

If you figure the chances that a 1 or 2 sec additional time will mean your demise, it is SO small it becomes personal choice and comfort if you carry C&L or not. The chances are great none of us will ever even once need to pull our guns. 80% of those very unlikely times, the BG flees. That leaves 20% of a likely-never shooting event. Out of THAT, the number dependent on not having 1 sec to spare becomes so small as to be meaningless as far as worrying about consequences. Do you worry your that brakes will fail AND your emergency brake fails at the same time? And make choices in your life dependent on that happening?

[ilikesa]

Do you worry your that brakes will fail AND your emergency brake fails at the same time? And make choices in your life dependent on that happening?

The same with the 3 safeties on the 1911...thumb, grip and trigger pull.

[gvf]

and more so with arguments over C&L. It is personal choice and comfort. (Not YOURS, the other persons'.)

[revjen45]

"I carry my 1911 cocked and locked safety off."
Actually, that's cocked and UNlocked. Some German security units employ this mode of carry. Just have a holster that covers the trigger and keep yer booger hook off'n the bang switch until showtime. I once carried my Makarov for 3 days before realizing the hammer was cocked, and there's no C&L option for a Mak.

[newarcher]

Well, son of Vlad....

Just like fine art or a nicely aged bottle of wine.....perfection takes time my friend.

I was pacing myself!

New

[easyG]

I once carried my Makarov for 3 days before realizing the hammer was cocked,....

I would not want you anywhere near me if you had a firearm!

[john_galt]

Good.
And I sincerely hope that you never make a mistake.
Because all it takes is for you to not close that safe all the way...or take the key off just for a minute...just once.

And the kid has to find the key while it's off, and he has to evade dad, and get the key in the door, and grab the gun.

Now if your kid is tracking you all day long to get the key the instant it comes off so he can grab your LOADED gun and play with it...well the fact that you have a loaded gun in the house is not the REAL issue.

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.

[gvf]

Deleteouble Post

[gvf]

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.


NO, this is NOT good. It all depends on no human error ever occurring, while at the same time involving the lives of children; and no we are not argumentative nor SOBs for bringing up these concerns, and YOU have no right calling anyone a SOB, especially from the safety of your keyboard... Grow-up.

You should be off the forums for this kind of belligerent nonsense.

[Capt. Charlie]

No safety plan is foolproof but if you're clocking a guy for having 2 safes, 2 keys and educated kids you're just an argumentative SOB and nothing will help you see anyones point ever.

and...

YOU have no right calling anyone a SOB, especially from the safety of your keyboard... Grow-up.

You should be off the forums for this kind of belligerent nonsense.

and...

Another one bites the dust. Closed.