Do you get involved ? (Redux)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Cap - the OC digression was because of my suggestion that using OC would be a good option as compared to the Cobra Clutch or Ninja Atomic Death Blow.

Lurper disagrees with it being a good option. We don't have to replay the LTL story again, I agree.

I suppose no one wants to suggest projectile vomiting. :barf:

Thus, getting involved with OC is an option for moi.

[threegun]

Glenn, I was kidding about using a RNC on this guy. I was angry after watching the video and wished that someone would choke the life out of that thug.

As a side note though I have been choked and choked others to tap out and it didn't take long. I doubt that I could deploy a knife if it was in a pocket, waist, or boot before blacking out.

[threegun]

OC pepper is great. I have used it twice to subdue a violent shoplifter. Once police had to call paramedics and they even put his shirt in a hazmat bag. I swear that you would have thought that he was dying by his crys.

That said I don't carry OC outside of work so it isn't an option for me.

[bestbod85]

+1 on the rear naked choke,

I've been a bouncer a a nightclub for about 5 years in a pretty rough spot of town, been in more life or death fights than i care to remember... i've seen many occurances like these, where someone is being attacked and/or mugged, many times i was told by managment not to intervein.... most times though i could not just stand by, in my opinion helping that old man would have been more than worth the risk ( with my training and experience).

rear naked choke but followed by a quick takedown and attack if neccesary from the standing position while he is on the ground ( just in case the people standing around jump in. so far all great advice in this thread, im very impressed that most would help if they could.

[Slugthrower]

Some by nature are risk takers and others are not. No weapon or technique is fool proof. Too many think of " Kung Fu" as infallible. Many schools of martial arts do not teach real combat. They will train in common forms yet will not allow a full out brawl type fight. Granted many would find it revolting to do so.

One thing is for sure intimidation plays a major role in any confrontation. Those that were bystanders and watched that happen most likely were being shown by that POS who is the alpha male. When you take down and seriously injure the baddest of the group the others will lack the courage to enter that fray. I have been enough fights to know this. I am sure that many here do not know what "fish hooking" is. Just know that it is illegal to use in any martial arts tournaments including the most brutal of them. The reason is that it will permanently disfigure a man and cripple him in addition to being exceptionally easy to do. That is only one dirty trick in my tool box and there are too many more to elaborate on. All that it takes is one hand and the willingness to grapple to fishhook a man. Yes I know that the possibility of the BG having a weapon is there. In this case I believe that this cowardly individual would have already produced his weapon if he had one. The others having weapons is a consideration. There again would they have the courage to use them? Especially when the toughest of them appears to be dead or dying in a fight that took mere seconds and they could be next? Using ones fists or open hands to achieve a "KO" is not a good idea. There are far better ways end a fight. Avoidance of course is the best idea of all.

Sometimes you must role the dice wether or not you like to gamble. Life itself is a gamble in many ways.

[rantingredneck]

.........well not that far.......

....I got involved in a similar situation.

Two gangbanger wannabes cut off an elderly (70's maybe?) gentleman and got a dose of horn for it. From there it went downhill fast. This was one of those situations where the two punks in the one car were stalking the older fellow and taunting him from their car. You could see it going very badly. They followed him to a gas station, I followed them. I was just out of college and recently married (to my first wife), owned a pistol, but no carry permit so it was at home. I also had no cell phone at the time, they weren't nearly as prevalent as they are today and were much more expensive then (see college, recently married).

The older fellow pulled into a gas station and got out of his car. Bad move. The two were pulled in behind him with the driver out of his car and on him in seconds. No punches thrown, but he had him jacked up pinned inside his open door.

I pulled in behind them and as I got out of the car the passenger got out to meet me and got a face full of OC for his trouble. He went down screaming. The driver turned in time to catch a foot in the crotch. He jacknifed at the waist exposing the back of his neck for a nice shot at GB20. Down, semi conscious.

Had either of them been armed I could have (or would have) been shot, probably killed. Did I think about this before wading in? Not really. It was more reaction than anything. Why did I not OC the second guy? I really didn't have time to think about this during the event, but if I had I would have likely sprayed the older fellow I was helping, he was right over the BG's shoulder from me. I guess on some level I realized that, but there was no conscious thought of "hey don't spray".

After the second guy went down, I told the old fellow to hit the road fast, and I left. As a final FU to the two on the ground, and to make sure I didn't get followed, I locked their doors before leaving. I didn't wait around for the cops to come, I don't know if anyone actually called them. This happened at about 2:00 in the afternoon in a relatively busy part of town so I can't imagine that they weren't called. I expected to get a visit to come in to chat about the incident (figured someone got my license plate #) but nothing ever came of it. Never even got the old guy's name, nor did I give mine.

Now, today, with a wife (a different one) and two kids to go home to, I can't say I would have done the same thing I did then. Would I stop and get out of the car, probably. Would I call the cops and make sure the BG knew I was calling, probably. Would I physically get involved, either lethal or LTL, I don't know...........

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've been choked out too in classes. I also took the Insights Defensive Knife class and if you don't get the choke on correctly, the knife escapes would be unpleasant.

Anyway - I'm getting a little too old for a physical fight if I could use a distance weapon.

Sorry to be snippy, Threegun. It's a function of the internet warping my mind!

I've been in a couple of incidents where I thought I would have to step up as a moral person. Lucky for us, they resolved before that was necessary.

[revjen45]

I worked with a fellow we'll call Big Eddie. Nothing offended Big Eddie like seeing a man abuse a woman. (Note at this point that Big eddie used to kick holes in the walls of a mobile home higher than his head, and he stood 6'3"- we worked in a mobile home mine). Once when leaving the store Big Eddie saw a man smack a woman in the parking lot. This offended B.E. to the point that when he left, the ignoble fellow was a sack of skin with bones sticking out. No weapons involved. B.E. could have been in Apocalypto as one of the warriors- I'm not endowed with his physical prowess. For me it's shoot or nothing. Getting involved would inevitably involve a weapon beef, which changes the equation a lot. Helping others is noble, but I don't want the rest of my life blighted by lawyers.

[Groundhog]

And what, pray tell, is a mobile home mine?

[rantingredneck]

My guess is it's a place that takes in used mobile homes and strips them for salvageable or recyclable parts? Only a guess mind you...........

[garryc]

Many schools of martial arts do not teach real combat. They will train in common forms yet will not allow a full out brawl type fight. Granted many would find it revolting to do so.

And that is the flaw in that training. You are trained to fight in a match with no desire to seriously injure your opponent. Remember, you'll fight like you train.

[threegun]

Glenn, While writing my response earlier a friend and customer at the Pawn Shop I work began running his cake hole that I, all 5'8" 180lbs, couldn't choke him to submission before he got me off. I learned that a miss applied choke attempt is not fun especially from a 6 plus foot 235 pound walking muscle. He learned that a correctly applied choke is bad real bad. I swear that when I bore down he tapped instantly. I have to say that you are correct if the choke is missed or defensed (hand or chin drop) it is useless. If done correctly it can turn a man mountain into a mush pile.

No matter because my hand fighting days are over also. My Glock and Puma are my protection now.

[garryc]

Let's understand, the choke hold is the use of lethal force. Lethal force is defined as that which is reasonable believed to be likely to cause death or serious injury. So lets look at it like a lawyer. If you are behind the guy to choke him, why then could you not flee? Was he a threat at that point? Remember that in most states you must stop hostility at the point that the other guy is no longer reasonably a threat. If you continue beyond that point then you are comitting the assault.

[badbob]

Let's understand, the choke hold is the use of lethal force. Lethal force is defined as that which is reasonable believed to be likely to cause death or serious injury. So lets look at it like a lawyer. If you are behind the guy to choke him, why then could you not flee? Was he a threat at that point? Remember that in most states you must stop hostility at the point that the other guy is no longer reasonably a threat. If you continue beyond that point then you are comitting the assault.

This is not a question of self-defence. It's a question of helping a person that's 91 years old, trapped between a car door and the car parked beside him and getting the crap beat out of him by someone trying to jack his car. What kind of gutless, Godless, uncaring person wouldn't help him? Sometimes I'm ashamed of the whole human race.

badbob

[garryc]

This is not a question of self-defence. It's a question of helping a person that's 91 years old, trapped between a car door and the car parked beside him and getting the crap beat out of him by someone trying to jack his car. What kind of gutless, Godless, uncaring person wouldn't help him? Sometimes I'm ashamed of the whole human race.

I was making a point as to the legality of using a choke hold BOB. I would not use it because it would be excessive and inappropriate given that it takes time and he other people that could step in.
As far as gutless BOB, I'm a corrections officer BOB, I take down criminals when it's potentially 100 or more to one. Have you ever used force, by yourself, completely unarmed while on a prison yard with 600 inmates? I have many times in my 15yrs BOB, and a choke has no place. It's something used on a criminal that has already been mostly subdued. In this situation the criminal needs to be put down fast and hard, and put down decisively enough that you can guard against the other associates. Get him down and get the old dude out. You step in not to issue justice but to extract the old man. And no, I wouldn't say anything that would direct his attention to me, complete surprise. I'd probably arm bar him into the car and toss him to the ground. When he's down grab the old dude and get him out before the criminal can recover.

[threegun]

I'd probably arm bar him into the car and toss him to the ground. When he's down grab the old dude and get him out before the criminal can recover.

How long does it take you to get up? I've been slammed to the ground pretty hard and it never made me stick to the ground. For the record my suggestion of the choke was in jest.

[bestbod85]

uuuummmm, first an arm bar and slamming him against the car may sound great in theory...... but theres a few problems, he is punching wildly with one hand and he can easily turn to either foil the hold or beat your brains in. the choke hold was brought up because of the angle of attack, from behind you can gain more control over the assailant faster and more effectivily. not saying the arm bar MIGHT not work but it is definitily more risky, time consuming and more tiring, also in order to arm bar him against the car you would have to turn your back to the people standing there, who may or may not be in on it. those little details are what makes or breaks a technique especially when your life depends on your decision.

[Big Calhoun]

Interesting that I caught this thread as I had my first hedgy situation a few weeks ago since obtaining my CHL.

Basically I was at my local laundromat and arrived in the middle of two, what I believe to be, gangbangers harrasing a guy who was doing some landscaping work. Because of their position, I chose to stay near my car rather than cross in the middle of the situation to get into the laundromat.

The harrasment consisted of intimidation and verbal abuse. It was 2-on-1 and the 2 postioned as if to possibly 'jump' the landscaper. While the entire incident lasted maybe 1.5 minutes, there were some clear thoughts in my head:

- I wasn't going to intervene if it was a fair 1-on-1 fight, although I would have called the cops.
- I didn't want any of the gangbangers behind me; I wanted to have a total eye on the situation at all times.
- My main focus was remembering their faces, clothing, and the car they drove away in for future reference.

As it turned out, the harrasment ended and the two punks drove away. Had the dynamics of the situation changed, who knows what the outcome would have been. But that's just it, it's about the dynamics. IMO, some situations call for intervention to prevent loss of life or some kind of greater tragedy. Others must be measured and sometimes the best course of action is just simple observation.

Had my situation came to a point where I had to intervene with my weapon, what would be the outcome now? If the two were infact members of a gang, could I be subject to retaliation? Would my wife and property be safe while I'm at work? Could the two have also had weapons and it turned into a gun fight? There's just no telling.

It's all about situational awareness and rationale thought.

[Groundhog]

I love some of the bluster that gets put on here. I wonder what kind of emotional responses would be put here had the headline read "Former Pimp beaten in Parking Lot"? Bet there'd be a whole ton of "That's Justice/Karma" comments instead of the "I'd kick the Vet beaters keister"! ones. Do you people who post like that even bother to analyze the situation? I'll start a new thread on that. What did you have here?

1. Parking lot of a small store of some kind next to busy main road.
2. Big enough perp beating UNIDENTIFIED man. From the video, I can't tell that the guy is 91 or even old.
3. Guy is not fighting back.
4. At least 5 (yes count them... FIVE) people are next to this situation and don't appear to be doing anything.

As much as you WANT to do something to help this man, and no matter how HARDWIRED you are to help, at the very least, you ought to have one or two brain cells firing saying "This may get you killed, just thought you might want to consider that before your emotions take over".

I am sure that there are some on this forum that would not bother to help at all, but all in all, it seems that most would do something. I think the real idea here is how smart would you be about it?

1. Call cops from safe area, stick around to be a good witness? You have helped him.
2. Call cops and then expose yourself yelling they are coming to BG? You have still helped him, but now the BG may come after you (or flee).
3. Join in the fight to attempt to end it? If you called the cops first, you undoubtedly helped. If not, you may just be another body laying there afterward. Helping this way could go either way.
4. Draw down on the guy? Now you got a whole can of worms open depending on the variables. I'm not saying don't, but are you ready for any possible outcome of that?

It's not about NOT helping. I don't think I've seen a post yet that is that blatant. It's about how smart you are when you DO help. If intervening to the point of your own death in this situation or any other is what you would do, I applaud you as long as you have thought about it. If you think that everyone should do that, perhaps you could share why you think that way instead of disparaging other posters opinions on why or if they would help.

[garryc]

uuuummmm, first an arm bar and slamming him against the car may sound great in theory...... but theres a few problems, he is punching wildly with one hand and he can easily turn to either foil the hold or beat your brains in. the choke hold was brought up because of the angle of attack, from behind you can gain more control over the assailant faster and more effectivily. not saying the arm bar MIGHT not work but it is definitily more risky, time consuming and more tiring, also in order to arm bar him against the car you would have to turn your back to the people standing there, who may or may not be in on it. those little details are what makes or breaks a technique especially when your life depends on your decision.

Lets understand that the situation is dynamic. If you pre-plan then your mind is pre-set and not able to adjust fast enough for the situation. Your actions must be instictive rather than pre-planed.

[Duxman]

91 year old man being pummeled. He certainly appeared to be in danger of losing his life.

In this situation - I dont know if you have time to make that 911 call before intervention.

Some training is required before you can do this well - but a kick to the kneecap of this offender from behind - followed up with a couple of punches to his kidneys would certainly bring him down.

After he is down - hold him at gunpoint - while calling 911.

Or you could certainly use Doug's pistol whipping suggestion.

[john in jax]

I or someone with me would dial 911 to get help rolling, then I'd have to do whatever I could to stop the situation.

If I happened to be packing (no, I don't carry all the time) I'm sure the gun would have, at the very least, been drawn.

If not armed I tend to like big, heavy belt buckles, that might have got his attention when I struck him with it as hard and often as I could (? Marine style ?).

If all else fails I'm 6'0", 300lbs and pretty good at throwing my weight around. Hand to hand would be my last choice, but I could not stand by chatting with the 911 operator while a senior citizen is beat-up by a thug. I just wasn't raised that way.

[rantingredneck]

Lets understand that the situation is dynamic. If you pre-plan then your mind is pre-set and not able to adjust fast enough for the situation. Your actions must be instictive rather than pre-planed.

Indeed. Your enemy rarely acts according to script.

[garryc]

Indeed. Your enemy rarely acts according to script.

And probably has more experience in a fight, plus he obviously lacks the normal aversion to injuring another person deliberately.

[markj]

And probably has more experience in a fight

Not really I got scars on my scars from fighting. never been knocked out either in the ring or out Dad wanted a pair of boxers, me and my brother was it.

When we was kids on the farm, Dad would "pit" us for his entertainment, we didnt know better and went at it with everything we had. Then golden gloves stuff and on.

As many times as that guy got hit, I take my hat off to him, he is one tough old guy.