Cursing and swearing about crimping and flaring

Bessiesboy · June 29, 2010, 08:55 AM

Loaded up my first 100 rounds of .38 Special and found they wont chamber in my revolver. It appears I flared the cases too much and then didn't crimp them enough!
The solution as I see it would be put them back through the die without setting the bullet deeper, and recrimp them.
Can I do that by removing the bullet seater ram from the die? I am using Lee dies.
Perhaps someone would be kind enough to walk me through the process. I do have one test cartridge I loaded with no powder and no primer that I could use for making adjustments.
Thanks, Bill

engineermike · June 29, 2010, 09:31 AM

If your seater die and crimp die are the same (I use Hornady dies) just back up the seater pin enough that it won't hit the bullet and start adjusting your crimp die until you reach the desired crimp. I just redid some 9mm ammo yesterday. after you get your 38 spl loads crimped just reset your seater pin and the next time you reload all should be good.

**Unclenick** · June 29, 2010, 09:48 AM

If you have the 4 die set, the Lee factory crimp die will be separate and you'll have no issues. For a 3 die set:

Back the seater stem out an arbitrarily large amount.
Back the whole die body itself up about half a turn.
Put a loaded round in the shell holder.
Run the ram up.
Turn the die body back down until you feel the crimp ring kiss the case mouth.
Back the ram down.
Turn the die body in a sixteenth of a turn.
Run the ram up and down.
Remove and inspect the round for proper crimp.
Return the round to the shell holder and keep repeating 7, 8, and 9 until the crimp is correct. Lee Says this will take 8 tries as half a turn in from step 5 is what they believe to be a correct crimp. I use less in light loads to make the brass last longer, but in full powder revolver loads you need the full crimp.

Watch this Lee help video.

Bessiesboy · June 30, 2010, 06:56 AM

Thanks.
I am putting the cartridges back through according to your directions and they are now reduced in size enough that I can get them into the chambers although its a tight fit.
I am wondering if in future I would be better not to use the full length resiser only to flare the top of the case a bit for the bullet. it is the full length resising that seems to have caused my problem.
Bill

RWJOHN · June 30, 2010, 09:37 AM

Hi Bill. A fully resized case should easily fit in your cylinder. If you have an empty case I would resize it and check.

I've developed a habit of checking my first few rounds before continuing on with a whole batch. If I adjust the crimp any at all I'll make sure it fits properly in the cylinder. Where I've had problems in the past was too much crimp. The case would bulge slightly and either be very tight or not fit at all.
I now seat and crimp in seperate operations. It's a little more work but the results are worth it. I don't trim my brass so if I feel or see a weak crimp I'll set them aside and adjust the die accordingly.
Good luck

Peace

RJ

NavyLT · June 30, 2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Thanks.
I am putting the cartridges back through according to your directions and they are now reduced in size enough that I can get them into the chambers although its a tight fit.
I am wondering if in future I would be better not to use the full length resiser only to flare the top of the case a bit for the bullet. it is the full length resising that seems to have caused my problem.
Bill

It is not the resizing die (which should be the first die in the process) that is flaring the case mouth. The resizing die should be turned in until it touches the empty shell holder when the ram is all the way up, and then lower the ram and turn the die in 1/4 more.

It is the second die, the flaring die (with Lee it is also the "powder through" die that activiates the automatic powder dispenser) that flares the case mouth for the bullet. Without the powder dispenser attached, you should run a resized case fully up on the ram, turn the flaring die in until you feel it engage the case mouth. Lower the ram, give the die another 1/4 turn in. Run the case up inside the die. Bring it out, see if a bullet just barely enters the mouth of the case. Keep turning the flaring die in until the bullet just barely enters the mouth of the case, then lock it down and re-install your powder dispenser.

Adjust your bullet seater and crimping die (if you do it in one step) as engineer mike suggested.

I much prefer the LEE factory crimp die as a fourth step, though. In that case you use die 3 - the bullet seater die - only to seat the bullet and let the die 4, the factory crimp die, do the crimping.

**Unclenick** · June 30, 2010, 11:07 AM

That's correct, though it is usually called an expander die in the pistol sets. Expanding is, in fact, handled in the sizing die for bottleneck rifle cases. There is just no room to do that in a straight wall sizing die. So, there is lots of room for confusion.

Bill,

Yours is not the first time I've heard of a Lee expander being a little oversize for the brand of brass being used. If you call Lee and return the die with a couple of your cases as samples, they will fix that for you. Alternately, if you have access to a lathe, you can turn it slowly and while pressing wet/dry paper against it, checking regularly so you don't take off more than a thousandth or two. Some folks manage to use a drill for this if they have one with a chuck that is big enough?

A second, and IMHO, better option, is to buy a separate Lyman M expander die. It expands and flares, but adds a small step that improve bullet alignment when you seat the bullet (see below). If you are using through-die charging another possibility is the Lyman Multi-Expander. The Multi costs more than a whole Lee die set, but it comes equipped to do a variety of calibers, so you can use the one for other chamberings as well.

Bessiesboy · June 30, 2010, 06:49 PM

HI. I have now been successful in getting all my cartridges properly sized and crimped so they slip easily into the chamber. They will probably last me for a few weeks.(This is the Frozen North so that might be the rest of the summer

)
Next time I reload I will follow the recommendations and advice given to me in your replies. I am appreciative of the assistance.
Bill

langenc · July 3, 2010, 07:24 PM

Get a Wilson or other case gage and check each round as you go!!

They also are used to check case length.

June 29, 2010, 08:55 AM	#1
Bessiesboy Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 8	Cursing and swearing about crimping and flaring Loaded up my first 100 rounds of .38 Special and found they wont chamber in my revolver. It appears I flared the cases too much and then didn't crimp them enough! The solution as I see it would be put them back through the die without setting the bullet deeper, and recrimp them. Can I do that by removing the bullet seater ram from the die? I am using Lee dies. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to walk me through the process. I do have one test cartridge I loaded with no powder and no primer that I could use for making adjustments. Thanks, Bill

June 29, 2010, 09:48 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If you have the 4 die set, the Lee factory crimp die will be separate and you'll have no issues. For a 3 die set: Back the seater stem out an arbitrarily large amount. Back the whole die body itself up about half a turn. Put a loaded round in the shell holder. Run the ram up. Turn the die body back down until you feel the crimp ring kiss the case mouth. Back the ram down. Turn the die body in a sixteenth of a turn. Run the ram up and down. Remove and inspect the round for proper crimp. Return the round to the shell holder and keep repeating 7, 8, and 9 until the crimp is correct. Lee Says this will take 8 tries as half a turn in from step 5 is what they believe to be a correct crimp. I use less in light loads to make the brass last longer, but in full powder revolver loads you need the full crimp. Watch this Lee help video. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; June 29, 2010 at 09:54 AM.

June 30, 2010, 11:07 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That's correct, though it is usually called an expander die in the pistol sets. Expanding is, in fact, handled in the sizing die for bottleneck rifle cases. There is just no room to do that in a straight wall sizing die. So, there is lots of room for confusion. Bill, Yours is not the first time I've heard of a Lee expander being a little oversize for the brand of brass being used. If you call Lee and return the die with a couple of your cases as samples, they will fix that for you. Alternately, if you have access to a lathe, you can turn it slowly and while pressing wet/dry paper against it, checking regularly so you don't take off more than a thousandth or two. Some folks manage to use a drill for this if they have one with a chuck that is big enough? A second, and IMHO, better option, is to buy a separate Lyman M expander die. It expands and flares, but adds a small step that improve bullet alignment when you seat the bullet (see below). If you are using through-die charging another possibility is the Lyman Multi-Expander. The Multi costs more than a whole Lee die set, but it comes equipped to do a variety of calibers, so you can use the one for other chamberings as well. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 30, 2010, 06:49 PM	#8
Bessiesboy Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 8	HI. I have now been successful in getting all my cartridges properly sized and crimped so they slip easily into the chamber. They will probably last me for a few weeks.(This is the Frozen North so that might be the rest of the summer) Next time I reload I will follow the recommendations and advice given to me in your replies. I am appreciative of the assistance. Bill

June 29, 2010, 09:31 AM	#2
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	If your seater die and crimp die are the same (I use Hornady dies) just back up the seater pin enough that it won't hit the bullet and start adjusting your crimp die until you reach the desired crimp. I just redid some 9mm ammo yesterday. after you get your 38 spl loads crimped just reset your seater pin and the next time you reload all should be good.

June 30, 2010, 06:56 AM	#4
Bessiesboy Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 8	Thanks. I am putting the cartridges back through according to your directions and they are now reduced in size enough that I can get them into the chambers although its a tight fit. I am wondering if in future I would be better not to use the full length resiser only to flare the top of the case a bit for the bullet. it is the full length resising that seems to have caused my problem. Bill

June 30, 2010, 09:37 AM	#5
RWJOHN Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Location: NC & SC Posts: 41	Hi Bill. A fully resized case should easily fit in your cylinder. If you have an empty case I would resize it and check. I've developed a habit of checking my first few rounds before continuing on with a whole batch. If I adjust the crimp any at all I'll make sure it fits properly in the cylinder. Where I've had problems in the past was too much crimp. The case would bulge slightly and either be very tight or not fit at all. I now seat and crimp in seperate operations. It's a little more work but the results are worth it. I don't trim my brass so if I feel or see a weak crimp I'll set them aside and adjust the die accordingly. Good luck Peace RJ

July 3, 2010, 07:24 PM	#9
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Get a Wilson or other case gage and check each round as you go!! They also are used to check case length.