Brass Sizing Problem

ninosdemente · September 17, 2022, 08:33 PM

Currently working on loading 175 rounds for 6.5 Creedmoor. These were previously sitting in a bin for about a year. Had run them through dry tumbler, removed old primer and cleaned primer pocket prior to sitting on a bin. A few days ago I started to resize the brass and started to use the FL die. After a couple of resized brass I noticed there were some rings on the bottom of the cartridge along with what looked like some scratches vertical on the brass (minute) but could see them. I stopped and removed the die to inspect. Removed the stem and didn't see anything of concern to me.

Prior to resizing, I had previously purchased RCBS Matchmaster dies. So I opted to remove the sizing die and use the recently purchased sizing die. When I started to use this I still noticed the rings on the bottom of the brass but the scratches were no longer there. Also when I used the new sizing die, I felt a much smoother process compared to the older die. The brass were lubed during resizing process. After a couple I checked to see if they would chamber for the intended rifle, it did so I kept going with all 175. After that, then I trimmed then followed by using the chamfer tool. After that, then cleaned/inspected before proceeding to primer the brass.

Then today I started to powder and seat bullet. Now this is where the problem started that I did not noticed prior to applying the primer. Was setting my seating die. The first brass that had powder I put it on the press, followed by placing the bullet on the cartridge then noticed the bullet was "seating" easily with my fingers when I pushed it down onto the brass. Don't have years of loading, but the little times I have.... I have never encountered this problem before. I removed the brass and took the same bullet and tried to seat it with my fingers and did so with no problem. I then started to check another brass and the same thing. Then another and didn't seat easily. I took all the brass and tested this method to each one. Don't know what I did wrong as out of the 175 sized brass about 65 doesn't have this problem. Other that the ones done with the "old" sizing die, the rest were sized with new die. No more than 10 brass were sized using the old die.

I checked with same brand but different bullets and did the same. For the brass there are 75 of one brand and 100 of another brand. From the 75, only 39 I could not seat and from the 100, 26 I could not seat. The process was done all at once other than applying powder and trying to seat bullet. Any help will greatly be appreciated.

akinswi · September 17, 2022, 09:22 PM

How many times have the cases been shot? Sounds like to me the necks are springing back and not giving you enough seating /neck tension. As the case neck gets worked from sizing the brass it gets brittle and doesnt hold its shape (springback)

You can fix this by annealing the cases, then resize.

If you dont want to anneal you can remove the exander ball from your FLS die then use a mandrel to size case neck. But they will never be super consistent and the case necks will only get harder.

But annealing should fix the issue

ninosdemente · September 17, 2022, 10:15 PM

Just once... they were purchased as factory ammo. Now this is my 1st time attempting to reload the brass. I have not annealed before.

Nathan · September 17, 2022, 10:54 PM

Quote:

RCBS Matchmaster

Aren’t these bushing dies? What neck bushing did you have in them?

akinswi · September 18, 2022, 05:05 AM

Then If they were once fired then your case necks should be fine, I would try sizing them with your original FL die. See if that puts adequate neck tension.

Nathan is correct,

MatchMaster Sizing dies require appropriate RCBS neck bushings for the caliber you are loading (sold separately). To determine the proper neck bushing size, measure the outside neck diameter of a loaded cartridge and subtract .002” to .003” to allow for a small amount of brass spring back. (This is from Midway’s Website.)

mehavey · September 18, 2022, 05:55 AM

Quote:

...started to use the FL die. After a couple of resized brass I noticed there were some rings
on the bottom of the cartridge along with what looked like some scratches vertical on the
brass (minute) but could see them

Totally normal.
Go back use the standard sizing die with the de-capping pin* removed to resize/expand the necks (internally this time) and you will be fine.

* just the pin, not the expander

gwpercle · September 18, 2022, 09:14 AM

Your first set of dies , the ones that scratched ... have picked up a microscopic bit of grit / dust ... it is embedded in the steel and you can't see it but it will scratch the brass case every time and will not just ... go away .
When mine did this I cleaned insides with a brass bore brush and whatever cleaning solvent you have ... pretend it's a rusty rifle chamber .
I did the brass bruss scrubbing really good .
Wrapped the brass brush in 0000 steel wool and scrubbed again .
Added a wrap of steel wool and J-B Bore cleaning compound (metal polishing compound) and gave it a slick polish on the inside ...Did the Trick .

I discovered that dies work better after you have polished them super smooth...
the makers can't afford hand finish/polishing but if you do it ...sure makes your re-sizing life happier !
Gary

**Unclenick** · September 18, 2022, 06:58 PM

The rings are on the dividing line between where brass was too thick to expand to fill the chamber and where it was not. The brass at this location is stretched a little thinner as the head is forced back against the breech face while the thinner parts of the case are stuck to the chamber wall by pressure. When you resize, this thinned portion is a little fatter than what is on either side of it, so you get a scuffed bright ring around it.

As previously mentioned, you need a narrower neck sizing bushing in your Matchmaster dies, or else to go back to standard dies. Also, make sure the expander in the die is not too large. It should be two or three thousandth under bullet diameter.

ninosdemente · September 19, 2022, 01:29 AM

Nathan, I checked and I don't have any in the die. I failed to buy the neck bushing.

Akinswi, thanks for the info. I checked both Midway and RCBS site. In RCBS site I measured the wall of the cartridge as I don't have a loaded round. (https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-...hings/494.html)

I took a couple of empty brass and had measurements of .0135" and .014", where .0135" was a bit more consistent. If I followed the instructions correctly, .0135 * 2= .027. Then from measuring diameter of bullet, .264 + .027 = .291 - .001, I get .29. On Midway it says 1 to 2 sizes above or below and RCBS says "Step 3 – Add that size to your cart". Also on RCBS site it says on their paragraph "RCBS suggests that reloaders get their determined size as well as the sizes .001 inches above and below their determined size."

Mehavey, thanks will try that. Will have to clean the die.

Gwpercle, thanks for your input. Will definitely give that a try. Good thing I do have steel wool and the cleaning compound.

Unclenick, thanks for the explanation. From my measurement, I need to get a .288 size?

ninosdemente · September 19, 2022, 01:31 AM

The primer that I have on the brass now that is needed to be resized again, can I still remove the primer "carefully" and reuse it? Sure would hate to throw them out.

sako2 · September 19, 2022, 02:50 AM

Leave the primer in. Take the decapping pin out of the dies. Remove just the pin.

akinswi · September 19, 2022, 05:06 AM

You need a base line, I would full length size a rd using your other FLS die that we know sizes the case correctly , and then load a projectile you dont have to use a primer or powder for this your making a dummy rd. (Mark it so you dont get it confused with loaded rd)

Then measure the outside diameterof the case neck. Thats your baseline. Get your bushing insert accordingly, .001 .002 etc

Measuring just the outside diameter of the case neck with no projectile inserted then trying to add the diameter of the bullet isnt going to give you the best results, brass thickness varies and no way to determine how much springback you have.

Remember your not making factory ammunition your making ammo tailored to “your gun.” big difference.

jetinteriorguy · September 19, 2022, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninosdemente

The primer that I have on the brass now that is needed to be resized again, can I still remove the primer "carefully" and reuse it? Sure would hate to throw them out.

Yes they can be reused, just take it easy when depriming. Another option for neck sizing is the Lee Collet die, works excellent and really helps with runout.

akinswi · September 19, 2022, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Yes they can be reused, just take it easy when depriming. Another option for neck sizing is the Lee Collet die, works excellent and really helps with runout.

Way easier on brass too, and best of all no trimming!

ninosdemente · September 19, 2022, 08:08 PM

Thank you guys for the help. Much appreciated. Will work on the suggestions to see what helps me.

ninosdemente · September 20, 2022, 02:50 AM

I ended up cleaning as Gwpercle suggested on the old FL sizing die. Did work much better, no feeling of scratching and felt smooth. Also removed the pin and was able to resize with no problem. At least for the moment I can continue to reload for this weekend.

September 17, 2022, 08:33 PM	#1
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Brass Sizing Problem Currently working on loading 175 rounds for 6.5 Creedmoor. These were previously sitting in a bin for about a year. Had run them through dry tumbler, removed old primer and cleaned primer pocket prior to sitting on a bin. A few days ago I started to resize the brass and started to use the FL die. After a couple of resized brass I noticed there were some rings on the bottom of the cartridge along with what looked like some scratches vertical on the brass (minute) but could see them. I stopped and removed the die to inspect. Removed the stem and didn't see anything of concern to me. Prior to resizing, I had previously purchased RCBS Matchmaster dies. So I opted to remove the sizing die and use the recently purchased sizing die. When I started to use this I still noticed the rings on the bottom of the brass but the scratches were no longer there. Also when I used the new sizing die, I felt a much smoother process compared to the older die. The brass were lubed during resizing process. After a couple I checked to see if they would chamber for the intended rifle, it did so I kept going with all 175. After that, then I trimmed then followed by using the chamfer tool. After that, then cleaned/inspected before proceeding to primer the brass. Then today I started to powder and seat bullet. Now this is where the problem started that I did not noticed prior to applying the primer. Was setting my seating die. The first brass that had powder I put it on the press, followed by placing the bullet on the cartridge then noticed the bullet was "seating" easily with my fingers when I pushed it down onto the brass. Don't have years of loading, but the little times I have.... I have never encountered this problem before. I removed the brass and took the same bullet and tried to seat it with my fingers and did so with no problem. I then started to check another brass and the same thing. Then another and didn't seat easily. I took all the brass and tested this method to each one. Don't know what I did wrong as out of the 175 sized brass about 65 doesn't have this problem. Other that the ones done with the "old" sizing die, the rest were sized with new die. No more than 10 brass were sized using the old die. I checked with same brand but different bullets and did the same. For the brass there are 75 of one brand and 100 of another brand. From the 75, only 39 I could not seat and from the 100, 26 I could not seat. The process was done all at once other than applying powder and trying to seat bullet. Any help will greatly be appreciated.

September 17, 2022, 09:22 PM	#2
akinswi Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: Bowling Green, Ky Posts: 706	How many times have the cases been shot? Sounds like to me the necks are springing back and not giving you enough seating /neck tension. As the case neck gets worked from sizing the brass it gets brittle and doesnt hold its shape (springback) You can fix this by annealing the cases, then resize. If you dont want to anneal you can remove the exander ball from your FLS die then use a mandrel to size case neck. But they will never be super consistent and the case necks will only get harder. But annealing should fix the issue Last edited by akinswi; September 17, 2022 at 09:27 PM.

September 18, 2022, 06:58 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The rings are on the dividing line between where brass was too thick to expand to fill the chamber and where it was not. The brass at this location is stretched a little thinner as the head is forced back against the breech face while the thinner parts of the case are stuck to the chamber wall by pressure. When you resize, this thinned portion is a little fatter than what is on either side of it, so you get a scuffed bright ring around it. As previously mentioned, you need a narrower neck sizing bushing in your Matchmaster dies, or else to go back to standard dies. Also, make sure the expander in the die is not too large. It should be two or three thousandth under bullet diameter. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 17, 2022, 10:15 PM	#3
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Just once... they were purchased as factory ammo. Now this is my 1st time attempting to reload the brass. I have not annealed before.

September 18, 2022, 05:05 AM	#5
akinswi Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: Bowling Green, Ky Posts: 706	Then If they were once fired then your case necks should be fine, I would try sizing them with your original FL die. See if that puts adequate neck tension. Nathan is correct, MatchMaster Sizing dies require appropriate RCBS neck bushings for the caliber you are loading (sold separately). To determine the proper neck bushing size, measure the outside neck diameter of a loaded cartridge and subtract .002” to .003” to allow for a small amount of brass spring back. (This is from Midway’s Website.)

September 18, 2022, 09:14 AM	#7
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Your first set of dies , the ones that scratched ... have picked up a microscopic bit of grit / dust ... it is embedded in the steel and you can't see it but it will scratch the brass case every time and will not just ... go away . When mine did this I cleaned insides with a brass bore brush and whatever cleaning solvent you have ... pretend it's a rusty rifle chamber . I did the brass bruss scrubbing really good . Wrapped the brass brush in 0000 steel wool and scrubbed again . Added a wrap of steel wool and J-B Bore cleaning compound (metal polishing compound) and gave it a slick polish on the inside ...Did the Trick . I discovered that dies work better after you have polished them super smooth... the makers can't afford hand finish/polishing but if you do it ...sure makes your re-sizing life happier ! Gary

September 19, 2022, 01:29 AM	#9
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Nathan, I checked and I don't have any in the die. I failed to buy the neck bushing. Akinswi, thanks for the info. I checked both Midway and RCBS site. In RCBS site I measured the wall of the cartridge as I don't have a loaded round. (https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-...hings/494.html) I took a couple of empty brass and had measurements of .0135" and .014", where .0135" was a bit more consistent. If I followed the instructions correctly, .0135 * 2= .027. Then from measuring diameter of bullet, .264 + .027 = .291 - .001, I get .29. On Midway it says 1 to 2 sizes above or below and RCBS says "Step 3 – Add that size to your cart". Also on RCBS site it says on their paragraph "RCBS suggests that reloaders get their determined size as well as the sizes .001 inches above and below their determined size." Mehavey, thanks will try that. Will have to clean the die. Gwpercle, thanks for your input. Will definitely give that a try. Good thing I do have steel wool and the cleaning compound. Unclenick, thanks for the explanation. From my measurement, I need to get a .288 size?

September 19, 2022, 01:31 AM	#10
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	The primer that I have on the brass now that is needed to be resized again, can I still remove the primer "carefully" and reuse it? Sure would hate to throw them out.

September 19, 2022, 02:50 AM	#11
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 741	Leave the primer in. Take the decapping pin out of the dies. Remove just the pin.

September 19, 2022, 05:06 AM	#12
akinswi Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: Bowling Green, Ky Posts: 706	You need a base line, I would full length size a rd using your other FLS die that we know sizes the case correctly , and then load a projectile you dont have to use a primer or powder for this your making a dummy rd. (Mark it so you dont get it confused with loaded rd) Then measure the outside diameterof the case neck. Thats your baseline. Get your bushing insert accordingly, .001 .002 etc Measuring just the outside diameter of the case neck with no projectile inserted then trying to add the diameter of the bullet isnt going to give you the best results, brass thickness varies and no way to determine how much springback you have. Remember your not making factory ammunition your making ammo tailored to “your gun.” big difference.

September 19, 2022, 08:08 PM	#15
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Thank you guys for the help. Much appreciated. Will work on the suggestions to see what helps me.

September 20, 2022, 02:50 AM	#16
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I ended up cleaning as Gwpercle suggested on the old FL sizing die. Did work much better, no feeling of scratching and felt smooth. Also removed the pin and was able to resize with no problem. At least for the moment I can continue to reload for this weekend.