Newbie with questions on 9mm target loads for Glock 19

jlm83082 · September 26, 2012, 10:58 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Gents,
So here are my questions: And below that is all my data and setup.

1. Is the discoloration on the brass from low pressure, high pressure or is it meaningless? Picture should be attached.

2. On the taper crimp, how can I tell if it is crimped right? too little/too much? I am noticing a ring around the top of the round after the seating die, is this normal? Is it a problem? I believe it is being left from the seating stem, maybe the rainer rounds are just extremely soft? Possibly have too much crimp(crimping stem seated too low, causing excess pressure on the round from the seating stem?)

3. Sizing die: Whats the best way to test it to ensure it is actually set correctly?

4. Titegroup powder: Using the hornady powder measure with the small pistol rotor, I am finding that it is not consistent at all. When I finally get one case with ex. 4.0 gr the next one might be 3.7 or 4.3, seems to bounce all over from plus/minus .3gr. Anyone else have this issue? Recommendations?

I have recently completed the setup of my new Hornady LNL Ammo plant. My dies are setup in the following manner.

S1. RCBS Carbide resizer/deprimer
S2. Hornady PTX Expander/Powder drop
S3. Hornady Powder COP
S4. Hornady Bullet feeder die
S5. Hornady Series 2 Seater die with taper crimp

Shell plate #8

I am only concerned with loading 9mm at this current time.

Below are the components I have been using thus far:
Bullets: Rainer 115gr RN
Primer: Remington 1.5 Small Pistol
Brass: Remington
Powder: Titegroup

Bear with me, I have a lot of data from the past 3 days of loading and shooting on the chronograph. You'll notice in loads 8 and 9 I am using the recommended MAX from the Speer and Nosler manual. I mention this because of the discoloration I am getting on the brass. Everything I have read says the discoloration on the brass is due to a low pressure issue not causing the brass to fully expanded in the chamber and correctly seal.

Load 1
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.0 gr
COAL 1.135"

Chrono
Shot 1 1027.67
Shot 2 980.47
Shot 3 1037.00
Shot 4 1016.03
Shot 5 999.83
Shot 6 999.09
Shot 7 1025.84
Shot 8 957.59
Shot 9 961.47
Shot 10 946.66

Deveation
Spread 90.34
Average 995.16

Load 2
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.0 gr
COAL 1.125"

Chrono
Shot 1 1004.39
Shot 2 1006.23
Shot 3 999.66
Shot 4 964.07
Shot 5 952.54
Shot 6 993.43
Shot 7 999.00
Shot 8 0
Shot 9 0
Shot 10 0

Deveation
Spread 53.69
Average 988.47

Load 3
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.0 gr
COAL 1.100"

Chrono
Shot 1 1021.00
Shot 2 1005.81
Shot 3 1012.96
Shot 4 1089.94
Shot 5 1024.63
Shot 6 1030.47
Shot 7 1030.47
Shot 8 0
Shot 9 0
Shot 10 0

Deveation
Spread 84.13
Average 1030.75

Load 4
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.2 gr
COAL 1.150"

Chrono
Shot 1 1059.79
Shot 2 1078.20
Shot 3 1071.42
Shot 4 1089.94
Shot 5 996.21
Shot 6 1082.54
Shot 7 1091.12
Shot 8 1067.74
Shot 9 1131.41
Shot 10 1077.33

Deveation 33.68
Spread 135.2
Average 1074.57

Load 5
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.2 gr
COAL 1.140"

Chrono
Shot 1 1070.47
Shot 2 1060.35
Shot 3 1068.21
Shot 4 1032.58
Shot 5 1089.65
Shot 6 1066.98
Shot 7 1071.23
Shot 8 1074.85
Shot 9 1031.96
Shot 10 1077.14

Deveation 18.62
Spread 57.69
Average 1064.34

Load 6
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.2 gr
COAL 1.135"

Chrono
Shot 1 1085.16
Shot 2 1070.76
Shot 3 1079.83
Shot 4 1090.63
Shot 5 1093.09
Shot 6 1084.96
Shot 7 1056.65
Shot 8 1124.89
Shot 9 1057.94
Shot 10 0

Deveation 20.66
Spread 68.24
Average 1082.65

Load 7
Bullet Rainer 115 gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.2 gr
COAL 1.125"

Chrono
Shot 1 1066.51
Shot 2 1045.78
Shot 3 1091.52
Shot 4 1040.48
Shot 5 1067.36
Shot 6 1076.38
Shot 7 1061.09
Shot 8 1077.72
Shot 9 1075.80
Shot 10 1068.96

Deveation 15.16
Spread 51.04
Average 1067.16

Load 8
Bullet Rainer 115gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.5
COAL 1.140"

Chrono
Shot 1 810.67
Shot 2 1111.18
Shot 3 1134.59
Shot 4 1120.00
Shot 5 1114.74
Shot 6 1087.40
Shot 7 1096.26
Shot 8 1121.55
Shot 9 1118.03
Shot 10 1139.82

Deveation 98.24
Spread 329.15
Average 1086.52

Load 9
Bullet Rainer 115gr RN
Primer Remington 1.5
Brass Remington
Powder Titegroup 4.5
COAL 1.125"

Chrono
Shot 1 883.83
Shot 2 1165.95
Shot 3 1120.93
Shot 4 1153.73
Shot 5 1144.46
Shot 6 1165.95
Shot 7 1150.55
Shot 8 1137.04
Shot 9 1158.48
Shot 10 1130.14

Deveation 84.72
Spread 282.12
Average 1121.1

Thanks for making it this far down the post and for any help and recommendations in resolving my issues. If you need more information or data let me know.

bullspotter · September 26, 2012, 11:49 PM

I will try to help here, lots going on

1st. The black markings on the casses could be from under pressure rounds not sealing. I dont know for sure they are under pressure though, the crono data looks good, I assume their should be good pressure their to get the velocity.... someone else may know more about it. I do see alot of brass with the same marks at the range, so im not sure if its a big deal or not.

2nd. Rainer bullets are plated and really soft, their should not be a bad mark on the bullet from seating, a light one is pry ok and normal in some casses. It could get worse if you are seating and crimping with the same die at the same time, i seat and crimp seperatly. If the marks are real bad, i would say you are crimping to much maybe, also you will see this vary if you are loading mixed brass, some might be a tad longer, as the bullet is being seated, at the end of the seat stroke, the crimp part of the die is taking the flare out and making the brass smaller, if its not seated all the way at this point, it makes it harder to seat the bullet, the extra pressue will shove the seat stem into the soft bullet. also a good indicator of a crimp die set to tight with soft bullets is a real poor oal average.

3rd. I set my size die for pistol so the shell plate touches the die. I run a case up into the die and look with a flashlight for a space between the die and shell holder, if their is a space i turn the die about 1/8 or so lower till the space is gone, i use a fresh unsized case everytime.

4th. I do not use a honady powder measure or titegroup powder. Dose your measure have a powder baffle in it? if its randomly throwing .3 over and .3 under your target, this could be an issue, more so with the .3 over if your close to a max load. .6 grain differeance is a fairly large amount, especially when you only loading 4-4.5 grains of powder.

Hope some of this helps.

bull bob · September 27, 2012, 12:57 PM

I'm gonna throw a guess in here, could be wrong, but.... They almost look like burn marks. Low pressure and underexpansion leaves a sooty black residue. These look like maybe oil or solvent left in the barrel from cleaning or lubricating that burned onto the cases when fired. Try making sure that the chamber and barrel is clean and dry before firing. The velocities and powder charges look like they are in the ball park for normal loads. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

rajbcpa · September 27, 2012, 01:18 PM

...I have never used Titegroup powder but I do have a new Hornady powder measure with a small drum...

If your new measure is not throwing consistent charges with a small drum, it may need to be throughly cleaned -again. There is a video on this on the Hornady cite. ....not cleaning all the the powder measure parts correctly is a classic cause of inconsistent powder throws...

I doubt this powder would fail to meter well in that powder measure but it is a possibility I guess. Have you run any other powders through this to see how they meter?

serf 'rett · September 27, 2012, 05:55 PM

1. Low pressure leading to incomplete sealing?

2. For taper crimp, the idea is to remove the case mouth expansion and perhaps a touch more (0.001").

3. I can't help here since I seat and crimp in different steps.

4. Odd that a spherical propellant would have wide swings, I don't even get that much difference with flaky Unique.

Side track question, maybe I missed something. You stated the measure was +/- 0.3 grains (0.6 grain total possible variance). For your testing rounds, did you weight each and every charge?

And did you shoot just for velocity or did you get groups to go with the groups?

shoot1forme · September 28, 2012, 11:13 PM

In reading your loading data I noticed your COL spread was .040 in. for all loads. They ranged from 1.100" to 1.500." I have read more than once that the 9mm operates at very high pressure under normal conditions and that by reducing the volume in the case by a mere .030" can, under some circumstances, double the already high pressures.

1. Did you own the Glock since it was new?

2. Have you ever noticed any rounds that sounded or felt quite a bit "hotter" than normal when fired?

When I load for the 9mm I make it a habit to try and keep my COL as long as possible to allow for proper functioning. This gives me a sort of built in "safety margin."

It will be tedious but you should weigh each charge individually while working up a load or at least until you figure out what is going on with your measue.

September 27, 2012, 05:55 PM	#5
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	1. Low pressure leading to incomplete sealing? 2. For taper crimp, the idea is to remove the case mouth expansion and perhaps a touch more (0.001"). 3. I can't help here since I seat and crimp in different steps. 4. Odd that a spherical propellant would have wide swings, I don't even get that much difference with flaky Unique. Side track question, maybe I missed something. You stated the measure was +/- 0.3 grains (0.6 grain total possible variance). For your testing rounds, did you weight each and every charge? And did you shoot just for velocity or did you get groups to go with the groups? __________________ A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

September 26, 2012, 11:49 PM	#2
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	I will try to help here, lots going on 1st. The black markings on the casses could be from under pressure rounds not sealing. I dont know for sure they are under pressure though, the crono data looks good, I assume their should be good pressure their to get the velocity.... someone else may know more about it. I do see alot of brass with the same marks at the range, so im not sure if its a big deal or not. 2nd. Rainer bullets are plated and really soft, their should not be a bad mark on the bullet from seating, a light one is pry ok and normal in some casses. It could get worse if you are seating and crimping with the same die at the same time, i seat and crimp seperatly. If the marks are real bad, i would say you are crimping to much maybe, also you will see this vary if you are loading mixed brass, some might be a tad longer, as the bullet is being seated, at the end of the seat stroke, the crimp part of the die is taking the flare out and making the brass smaller, if its not seated all the way at this point, it makes it harder to seat the bullet, the extra pressue will shove the seat stem into the soft bullet. also a good indicator of a crimp die set to tight with soft bullets is a real poor oal average. 3rd. I set my size die for pistol so the shell plate touches the die. I run a case up into the die and look with a flashlight for a space between the die and shell holder, if their is a space i turn the die about 1/8 or so lower till the space is gone, i use a fresh unsized case everytime. 4th. I do not use a honady powder measure or titegroup powder. Dose your measure have a powder baffle in it? if its randomly throwing .3 over and .3 under your target, this could be an issue, more so with the .3 over if your close to a max load. .6 grain differeance is a fairly large amount, especially when you only loading 4-4.5 grains of powder. Hope some of this helps.

September 27, 2012, 12:57 PM	#3
bull bob Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 114	I'm gonna throw a guess in here, could be wrong, but.... They almost look like burn marks. Low pressure and underexpansion leaves a sooty black residue. These look like maybe oil or solvent left in the barrel from cleaning or lubricating that burned onto the cases when fired. Try making sure that the chamber and barrel is clean and dry before firing. The velocities and powder charges look like they are in the ball park for normal loads. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

September 27, 2012, 01:18 PM	#4
rajbcpa Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2012 Posts: 321	...I have never used Titegroup powder but I do have a new Hornady powder measure with a small drum... If your new measure is not throwing consistent charges with a small drum, it may need to be throughly cleaned -again. There is a video on this on the Hornady cite. ....not cleaning all the the powder measure parts correctly is a classic cause of inconsistent powder throws... I doubt this powder would fail to meter well in that powder measure but it is a possibility I guess. Have you run any other powders through this to see how they meter?

September 28, 2012, 11:13 PM	#6
shoot1forme Junior Member Join Date: July 4, 2011 Location: Northern Left Coast Posts: 12	In reading your loading data I noticed your COL spread was .040 in. for all loads. They ranged from 1.100" to 1.500." I have read more than once that the 9mm operates at very high pressure under normal conditions and that by reducing the volume in the case by a mere .030" can, under some circumstances, double the already high pressures. 1. Did you own the Glock since it was new? 2. Have you ever noticed any rounds that sounded or felt quite a bit "hotter" than normal when fired? When I load for the 9mm I make it a habit to try and keep my COL as long as possible to allow for proper functioning. This gives me a sort of built in "safety margin." It will be tedious but you should weigh each charge individually while working up a load or at least until you figure out what is going on with your measue.