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Old July 9, 2019, 03:45 PM   #1
Metal god
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What's more likely to lead the barrel - soft lead or hard lead ?

I understand there are all kinds of caveats to this question . However all other things being equal which leads barrels more ?


FWIW this is for a 38/357 and the question comes from me buying the wrong bullet ( only 500 ) so not a big deal but in my head it seems reasonable to think soft bullets will lead more . I do however use lead in my 45acp and it seems to lead more then my 357 .


Does hotter burning ( actual heat producing ) powders cause the softer lead bullets to melt more as the go down the barrel . Titegroup comes to mind as a hotter burning powder and although I don't use it for lead bullets I do use CFE pistol which seems to heat my barrel faster then other powders I use .

Anyways I'd rather not use these bullets if it's going to take twice as long to clean my firearms and leave lead all around my bench . I've only been using lead for a short time and it is much more work to clean then plated or jacketed bullets .

I'm using cooper wool wrapped around a nylon brush to clean stubborn leading which works great but that is an extra step I've never needed to do with other platted or jacketed bullets . Is there a liquid cleaner that resolves lead that is safe to use ?
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Old July 9, 2019, 04:05 PM   #2
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Missouri bullets provides some answer to the question

https://missouribullet.com/technical.php

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Old July 9, 2019, 04:18 PM   #3
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Use powder coated lead bullets. I shoot 96 rounds of home cast, powder coated bullets every day...zero leading.
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Old July 9, 2019, 05:13 PM   #4
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That's an interesting write up that Missouri bullets provides but I have zero understanding of that mathematical formula . Also I always considered a BHN of 16 or 18 to be pretty hard . Seeing how the 45acp is a low pressure round , my 357 loads would need a BHN of what a million . lol OK maybe not that hard but way harder then the soft cast lead I bought . Looks like if I'm going to load these bullets they are going to be some real moose farts .
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Old July 9, 2019, 05:30 PM   #5
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In my limited experience, mostly with a Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt, hard lead bullets leaded the worst, and the leading was mostly confined to the first inch-and-a-half of the barrel, nearest the cylinder. Undersized cylinder throats was the culprit; reaming the throats to .4525 eliminated the problem. Now I don't really have to clean the gun, but I do so a couple of times a year or so, whether it needs it or not. The other thing I did was to ream the forcing cone to 11 degrees which also helped some and accuracy improved.
Softer bullets driven too fast tend to lead the barrel near the muzzle, so I've read, but I've never driven them that fast in the 45 to have it happen to me. With a 357 it could be more likely. So if you've bought softer bullets than you intended, just load them down to perhaps 1,000 fps or less and you should have no problems.
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Old July 9, 2019, 05:34 PM   #6
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I can only relate my experiences with lead bullets. Bullets can be too soft and will lead barrels if pushed too fast. This has happened with a couple of revolvers I shoot frequently. However, these really hard commercially cast bullets lead even worse. In my guns they left alloy choking the forcing cone. The bullet base wouldn't expand in the forcing cone causing the hot gasses to melt off lead and "solder" it to the barrel. Gas check bullets prevented this, of course. Also my cast bullets cast from WW (the old good ones) never leaded even at magnum velocities, and this included plain base bullets. The hard cast commercial bullets actually performed splendidly in auto pistols and in rifles, such as the .308, 30/30 and others. But I never pushed them past 2000 fps.
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Old July 9, 2019, 05:45 PM   #7
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Got little to do with the hardness, and everything to do with bullets being the proper size for your gun. Use too small bullets for your particular gun and you will get leading.

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Old July 9, 2019, 06:04 PM   #8
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I just did some measuring and it was a lot harder then I thought it would be . The bullet in question is the speer 158gr LSWC ( swaged ) . It's soft , much softer then the Xtreme 158gr LRN I use . The bullets mic'ed at .358 and they just barely hang up when dropped into the cylinder at the cylinder throat . Just a very light push with a pencil and it pops right through . My bore on the other hand was much harder to measure . I forced one of the bullets in it then measured after it came out . The problem I'm having is my lands and grooves are opposite one another on the other side of the bullet ( like 5r rifling ) This makes it very hard to get an accurate measurement . Regardless it's smaller then .358 for sure . My "guess" would be .354 to .355 would be the grooves but not really sure .

Hodgdon has a 158gr cast LSWC use Win 231 ( which I have ) min 3.4gr max 5.0gr . Think I'll load up a few at 3.8 , 4.0 , 4.2 and see how they do in my 6" GP-100 ????

EDIT :

I was just looking at some loads I have using those X-treme 158gr bullets . I have one that is 4gr of Win 231 so that's good I guess . Softer bullet will behave differently but in such a light load for 357 , there shouldn't be any issues using the softer bullet at the same charge .
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Old July 9, 2019, 06:08 PM   #9
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One of the greater causes of leading is leakage of hot gas around the bullet.
A critical point is having the bullet the right size to seal the bore.

A hard bullet that is .001 undersize may very well lead. Even a Laser Cast 45 ACP.

But I also know from experience that plain old pure wheel weight 255 gr cast bullets with no gas checks work just fine with full power 44 Magnum loads through my Super Blackhawk. Its critical that the cylinder throats are equal or greater diameter than the groove diameter in the barrel.

Sometimes,particlarly with black powder,a soft bullet will upset,or "bump up" a bit with the acceleration of ignition. If this is enough to make a seal,then a soft bullet may lead less because its not leaking gas.


Any variation in alloy mix can change the diameter of the bullets a mold drops.
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Old July 9, 2019, 10:23 PM   #10
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The interesting thing about this leading issue is . I'm not even sure what bad leading is .I hear guys say they never have leading problems . So my question is what makes it a problem ? I shoot maybe 50 or 100 rounds through my gun and after I can see some streaks of lead down my bore . It's never been a lot but there has been a few times it did not want to come out with out some real effort involved .

That's what got me thinking about leading . I have to assume once it starts building up it only continues to get worse if you don't clean it out . I don't always clean my gun after I shoot or before I go again so 200+ rounds between cleanings is a real possibility . What's a round count where guys are still seeing "no" leading in the barrel . I don't shoot much more then 100rds at a time with a revolver . Semi's on the other hand eat up ammo like it's going out of style . Because of this I'm really starting to like shooting revolvers .
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Old July 9, 2019, 11:06 PM   #11
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Assuming the bullet is .001" over the groove diameter and the chamber throats are not sizing the bullet less than the groove diameter things should go well.
Somewhere I saw a formula for chamber pressure and appropriate BHN?
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Old July 10, 2019, 01:11 PM   #12
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The hardness makes no difference. Leading is caused by trying to drive any cast bullet too fast.
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Old July 10, 2019, 04:14 PM   #13
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"Seeing how the 45acp is a low pressure round , my 357 loads would need a BHN of what a million ."

T'ain't necessarily so. If the bullet is properly sized for your gun, leading should be nonexistent or negligible. Case in point. I ran a a large batch of Lyman #358156GC bullets and forgot to change the alloy in my pot. The alloy I wanted to use run 11 to 12 on the BHN scale. The alloy in the pot used for target loads runs right around 8BHN. A friend asked me to load a box of .358 mags for him and after getting them done realized I'd used the bullets running 8 BHN. Well, the ammo was loaded and no time to drain the pot and run a few of the proper hardness so I told my friend what the deal was and if the gun leaded badly I'd do the chore of getting the lead out. Next time I saw him he told me that they were the most accurate loads he'd ever shot and no leading of the barrel. I loaded up another box to see how they'd work in my handgung and darned if he wasn't right. The load is one of the most accurate ones I've ever shot and the bore showed no signs of leading. The load was 14.0 gr. Alliant 2400, R/P brass, Winchester WSP primer and that 158 gr. cast bullet with gas check. velocity about 1,300 FPS.

It is my carefully considered opinion that the relationship of the bullet's size, throat diameters of the cylinder and the groove diameter in the barrel all have to work together to have a good accurate load.
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Old July 10, 2019, 04:23 PM   #14
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"I just did some measuring and it was a lot harder then I thought it would be . The bullet in question is the speer 158gr LSWC ( swaged ) . It's soft , much softer then the Xtreme 158gr LRN I use . The bullets mic'ed at .358 and they just barely hang up when dropped into the cylinder at the cylinder throat . Just a very light push with a pencil and it pops right through . My bore on the other hand was much harder to measure . I forced one of the bullets in it then measured after it came out . The problem I'm having is my lands and grooves are opposite one another on the other side of the bullet ( like 5r rifling ) This makes it very hard to get an accurate measurement . Regardless it's smaller then .358 for sure . My "guess" would be .354 to .355 would be the grooves but not really sure ."

My thought is a bullet sized .359" would just about be perfect if the .358 slips thought with only a slight push.

If you're shooting a Smith & Wesson, they use 5 land and grooves which it a bear to measure unless you have a a special type of micrometer. You might find a machinist shop where they probably have such a tool and have them measure a couple of bullets for you. I had the same problem and .359" has worked just fine in my M28 and was what I used for a friend's .357 mag. with soft 8 BHN bullets. On a Ruger Blackhawk I used to have I had to size bullets to .360" in order to attain any kind of accuracy.
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Old July 10, 2019, 06:49 PM   #15
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I disagree wth Mr O Heir about velocity. I've seen leading in a 1911 Kimber made decades ago when Kimber made a darn good 1911.These were target loads,200 gr SWC made with Laser Cast bullets and (IIRC), Hogdon Clays

It was my brother.s gun/ammo,and I'm sure he just bought the bullets and loaded them,wth no idea what his bore measured. FWIW,I've had great luck with Laser Cast.


I've also shot hundreds of pounds of wheelweight through my 44 mag SBH with no leading problem, max to near max H-110 loads,with bullets from 215 to 300 gr. Velocities were up there. The bullets fit the gun. I think we used a Lyman lube in the luber/sizer


Cast bulets can work very well in rifles till you approach 2000 fps.


Yet people can get leading at velocities below 1000 fps
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Old July 11, 2019, 06:26 AM   #16
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As already stated, many characteristics contribute to the propensity of leading. But in general I would suggest that harder bullets are more likely to lead a barrel.

When it comes to leading, other factors are at least as important as bullet hardness. I've had the worst leading from bevel base bullets with colorful crayon lube cast from hardball alloy. But bullet makers like that combo because they are damaged less by boxing and shipment. I've had much less leading from softer alloy coated bullets.
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Old July 11, 2019, 07:49 PM   #17
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Well Metal God, I'm probably the wrong person to ask; and yet, here I am chiming in.

I shoot a lot of 38/357; and I get no leading whatsoever - except when I shoot lead bullets . And then, I ALWAYS get barrel and/or cylinder throat leading - no exceptions - ever. EVER. If I shoot lead, I get barrel leading - period.

On June 4th, 1984, I loaded my first round of ammunition. It was a 38 Special with 3.8 grains of Bullseye, under a Speer 158gn LRN. It leaded the barrel of my Colt Python . Fast forward 35 years, and I have loaded every combination of lead slug imaginable (diameter, profile, hardness), using propellants of every burn rate range imaginable. And guess what: barrel leading. 100% of the time. No exceptions.

A few years back, I fire-lapped all my 38/357 revolvers. It had little effect; except maybe slightly less leading, and slightly easier to remove. That's it.

I have learned a few things, that may actually touch on addressing your question :

Large (.359) hardcast slugs (Matt's 150 DEWC), loaded hot with intermediate speed powders seem to lead the least. With no throat leading, and (relatively) minimal barrel leading, building up at the breech and migrating forward with continual shooting. If I load them with a fast powder, there's still no throat leading, but there is more barrel leading at the breech. Matt's 178 (1-seven-8, not a typo) LSWC has minimal leading too. It's a good bullet (.359").

.358" hardcast slugs (SnS Hardcast and others), loaded hot with fast powders seem to lead the most. With extensive throat leading (peeling off in sheets after just a couple cylinder's worth) and major leading at the breech; where after about 30 rounds, it is difficult to decipher the lands from the grooves. The primary culprit here is the slug; as it really matters little which propellant - loaded hot or mild - is used.

.358" softcast slugs (MoBuCo BHN 12 DEWC) lead the throats less, but no difference in the barrel; as compared to the hardcast mentioned above. Extensive breech leading. Again, propellant seems to matter little.

.357" softcast slugs (MoBuCo BNH 12 DEWC) loaded light with a fast powder (Nitro 100) or rather hot with an intermediate (AA#5) lead the throats very little, and the barrel only moderately. But will lead farther down the barrel sooner. If I load the Nitro 100 hotter, or the AA#5 lighter, barrel leading becomes extensive at the breech very quickly. These .357" slugs seem to shoot just as straight as any .358, btw.

I've used Speer's swaged lineup of bullets (all of them) over the years. Barrel leading throughout; but usually spares the throats. Propellant matters little; although moving to an intermediate burner may help a little. HS-6 comes to mind; but it was a horribly filthy burner.

TiteGroup leads the barrel throughout extensively - regardless of bullet or load level. It seems really bad with 45 ACP 200 LSWC's.

At the range, I have just gotten used to mixing plated and jacketed bullets with the lead slugs throughout my shooting day; so leading never builds up; finishing exclusively with jacketed. I have also resolved to purchase no more lead slugs (I have thousands though). I am really pleased with plated bullets and don't mind the expense. BTW, no bullet has leaded my barrels worse than polymer coated bullets - and they stink when shooting. So that's out.

Speaking of 45 ACP: This is where my luck changes. I shoot a lot of lead 200 LSWC's in both my Colt and Kimber 1911. I use MoBuCo's soft .452" offering. It is a superb slug. I have also used their hardcast version and noticed no difference in leading. Also, what little lead builds up, seems to scrub out a lot easier that with my 38/357 revolvers. I only load to about 840 f/s, so I stick with their softcast version - as that's what they say I should use for the application.

Moving to 44 Special: I have two Smith 629's. One with an 8-3/8" bbl was purchased new in 1984. It seems to lead moderately but I haven't done the kind of testing I've done with my 38/357's. There may be a combo out there that works well. I don't shoot 44 often. My other 629 is a 5" Classic, purchased just a few years ago. I am convinced that the barrel is really scruffy and only half-finished, basically. Whenever I shoot lead through it, leading is immediate, complete and a true atrocity. But I blame that on poor workmanship; not the slug. Hell, the barrel wasn't even bored straight, relative to the barrel stock. Amazingly, it has a really nice trigger though; but I believe that to be just good luck - not conscientious craftsmanship.
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Old July 12, 2019, 08:03 AM   #18
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I shoot cast bullets in the .45 auto and 45 ACP revolver, cast and some swaged soft Hornady lead in my .38/.57 revolvers. I get nearly zero leading in any of my handguns. I do not shoot magnum loads tho. In the past I shot a lot of .357 and .44 Mag. loads with cast bullets made of linotype, lino is about the hardest lead alloy you will find. The only revolver I ever had trouble with was a Ruger Blackhawk that had oversize throats, it leaded with any cast bullet no matter what. As I said, I get almost no leading. I do clean my guns after approx. 200 rounds. I use .358 dia in the .38s and .452 in the .45s. If the bullets are .359" or .453" it doesn't make any difference in my guns. This in 11 .38/.357 and 7 .45 ACP.
If all is well you should get minimum leading up to 850 to 900 fps.
I have shot cast bullets in 9 MM too, 1000 rounds of 125 gr cast RN, a min of leading in my 92FS and a Citadel 1911 gun, leaded in my Ruger LCP. The cast in the 9 were no more accurate than the plated bullets so I've stayed with plated for now. I did buy 500 Cast 125 SWC to test but I haven't done it yet. I have a new Dan Wesson that may do better than the other guns. So far, it seems that jacketed bullets are more accurate in the 9 mm guns.
Your mileage may vary........................................
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Old July 12, 2019, 09:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR View Post
Got little to do with the hardness, and everything to do with bullets being the proper size for your gun. Use too small bullets for your particular gun and you will get leading.

Don
From having cast - sized - and fired a few 1000 cast lead rounds through my Glock 35 I can attest that this statement is not true.

My rounds were all .401 spec having been correctly sized and I pretty regularly leaded my factory glock barrel AND my wolf after market barrel up.

Arguably - an undersized round rattling around in your barrel will result in MORE leading. But so will perfectly sized rounds.

I got substantially less leading when I shifted from relatively hot burning H Titegroup to less hot burning Hodgdon HP38.

And my leading went to pretty much zero with powder-coated cast rounds.
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Old July 12, 2019, 11:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
From having cast - sized - and fired a few 1000 cast lead rounds through my Glock 35 I can attest that this statement is not true.
Well, GL, that's your experience. As for me, I cast my own and size them to fit each handgun they will be fired in and get no leading. In fact, these bullets are cast much softer than you would believe for the velocity/pressure they are being shot at. To each their own.

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Old July 12, 2019, 02:17 PM   #21
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+1 with USSR's comments. I've shot silly putty soft lead, kinda soft, and hard through several handguns and rifles . Only time i ever saw lead traces was when i ran some no-name .45 cal rifle bullets for my 1885 TD that measured .456 and my Trap Doors' old barrel needs nice soft .459's . Undersize bullets allow "gas cutting" where the combustion flame softens the lead at the base and causes lead to stick to your barrel.
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Old July 12, 2019, 04:20 PM   #22
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Well I loaded up 50rds at 4gr of 231 . I'll clean my bore real good then shoot all 50 rounds consecutively and see if I get any fouling/leading .
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Old July 12, 2019, 11:34 PM   #23
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That's a good question.
I've encountered high BHN leading and dead soft barrel leading. As to which barrel leading is more prevalent? High BHN lead of course as I shoot more modern than antiquated firearms.
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Old July 13, 2019, 07:43 AM   #24
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I have shot tens of thousands of cast bullets with NO leading.

IF you do get leading go tot the Cast Boolits board at Gunloads .com and they will help you figure out the problem.

I shoot 38, 44 special 45 auto and 45 colt with no leading. 44 magnums get gas checks. If the bullet fits, you have proper sizes, it will not lead.

I remember trying to load Hornady swaged SWC for my 357. It was a sad affair. I was goint for 1100 fps. First shot hit the target, after that it went down hill. I learned. Too soft for the application. Backed them off to 800 fps, everything was fine after I spent way too long cleaning the barrel . I did not know about the chore boy yet and used a Lewis lead remover.

I shoot home cast in my 222 at WMR velocity. 1600 fps. They have a gas check and drop from the mold at .228. They are lubed with liquid alox and an anealed gas check is added. I use these for small game, mostly squirrels.
It took some time to figure out how to get these to shoot in my gun which is a Savage 222 over 20 gauge.

Mosty bullseye shooters use cast lead, now for me its coated cast.

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Old July 13, 2019, 08:47 AM   #25
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All I shoot is lead bullets. Yes, I have had serious leading... But there is always a reason. For example one revolver had two problems. Way under size throats and a barrel constriction. Once I reamed all six throats to proper size, most of the leading went away. Firelapping took care of the rest. Now after shooting, it just takes a wet swap and then a dry to clean the bore of that gun. In .44Mag I've shot up to 1300fps with no leading (didn't go beyond as I wasn't interested in more velocity). Not going to repeat above as the 'reasons'/how to fix has been covered.
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