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November 5, 2009, 09:20 PM | #26 | |
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The most C&R firearms I'll have in the near future is 4-5. That'll still fit on the same sheet, and I have several other blanks. I'm not buying a BOOK for a single sheet; a folder will do just fine. If someone kicks in my door for keeping my completed C&R list in a folder with my C&R paperwork, original license, and copies, I'll laugh all the way to the bank. |
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November 5, 2009, 09:27 PM | #27 |
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Here, this should settle it:
E. RECORDS REQUIRED – LICENSEES (E1) What is a "bound book?" A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively. [27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125] http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#e1 |
November 5, 2009, 10:34 PM | #28 |
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Not trying to be argumentative, but is this passage specific to regular dealer licenses that are businesses, or general to all licenses including both business and C&R (non business)licenses? Because the bit you quoted says "on the business premises."
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November 6, 2009, 02:22 PM | #29 | |
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It is applicable to ALL licensees. The FAQ's are not the actual regulations, but an attempt to simplify the language in the actual regulations. It probably should read: "on the licensed premises" rather than "on the business premises".
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November 6, 2009, 04:22 PM | #30 | ||
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NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member Last edited by Hkmp5sd; November 6, 2009 at 04:30 PM. |
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November 7, 2009, 02:06 AM | #31 | |
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I would suggest you argue with them. Just for the heck of it, though, next week I am going to contact Martinsburg and see what THEY have to say. But, hey, if YOU want to enter them in YOUR book, by all means go right ahead. |
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November 7, 2009, 09:51 AM | #32 |
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I believe they told you that. I've been told many different things by ATF over the last 30 years. I was even an 01-FFL for several years. I do suggest that you get your answer in writting. They do tend to change their opinion frequently and without warning, especially field agents.
And like you said, my C&R acquisitions will go into my bound book. For some reason, I still cannot find where it says "record each receipt using collectors license" in the statute. Kind of dumb that a C&R firearm becomes "modern" when you buy it using a 4473, yet returns to being a C&R if you sell it, and its disposition has to be recorded in your bound book. To quote Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, "Opinions vary." End of argument.
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NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member Last edited by Hkmp5sd; November 7, 2009 at 10:03 AM. |
November 7, 2009, 11:36 PM | #33 | |
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In almost every call I've made to ATF they don't give advice or an interpretation- they quote ATF regulations word for word. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER, rely on verbal answers from ATF (or for that matter IRS, USPS or any .gov agency). Time and time again, they are proven wrong. ATF is notorious for issuing conflicting opinions in WRITTEN format. An example of note is the legality of attaching a wooden stock/holster to certain Mauser, Luger & Browning/Inglis Hi Power pistols. In 1981 ATF's Technical Branch issued a ruling that reproduction stock/holsters were okay, several years later they issued another ruling that only original stock/holsters were okay to attach without violating the NFA. You'll never be fined or do time for recording ALL & EVERY C&R eligible firearm in your C&R book. Why tweak the nose
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November 8, 2009, 12:48 AM | #34 |
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Here's one for ya. Let's say I sell one of my C&R guns that was purchased before I got my 03FFL. Obviously they are not in my bound book, but I have to record the disposition. So I have an entry with a disposition but no aquisition? Or do I enter it into the book as aquired from myself on the same day I dispose of it? I don't want to backdate the aquisition to when I originally bought it, plus I don't have the necessary details... Or do I just put a notation that the gun was aquired before I had a license?
(I doubt that I will ever sell anything)
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November 8, 2009, 04:04 AM | #35 | |
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November 8, 2009, 04:06 AM | #36 |
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You only enter the transaction getting rid of it. You didn't have your 03 FFL when you got it, so you wouldn't have recorded the acquisition.
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November 8, 2009, 04:31 AM | #37 | |
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I might add that the I.O. supervisor stated that "..we wish you would enter them into your records, but, legally, you don't have to..." (That surprised me a little bit, on one hand, but, on the other hand, their attitude didn't.) Also, the status of the gun does not change from C&R to "modern" per se; It's HOW you acquired the gun that determines whether or not you have to enter it, and, while virtually every other means of acquisition requires that you enter it, in this one instance, it does not (according to the 4 people I spoke to). Again, they are saying that, if you did NOT use your license to acquire the firearm (and had to do it on a 4473), it is your private personal property and not an 03 acquisition and therefore need not go in the bound book. I assume this is the same principal that allows an 01 FFL to make a purchase on a 4473 and not have to enter it into his books. At any rate, I am going to submit this whole mess to ATF this week and get something in writing. I will be very curious to see what they say. Something only semi-related here, but there are a couple of guns on the C&R list that surprised me, and, had I not just accidentally come across them while looking for something else, I would have never known they were C&Rs. It would be very possible for an 03 to purchase them in a gun store on a 4473 with both parties thinking they were "modern" guns. Last edited by gyvel; November 8, 2009 at 09:53 AM. |
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November 8, 2009, 04:34 AM | #38 | |
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