6 oclock or point of aim for 22 rifle

mrpike1973 · November 2, 2018, 07:26 PM

I'm not to good at iron sights have a Henry 22 at 25 yards I use the 6 o clock method i hit center good but at 50 Yards I'm almost a foot too high what am I doing wrong? I finally figured it out to shoot hand guns point of aim and rifles at 6 o clock? correct? I have no problem hitting bullseye with hand guns thanks for help pics help if possible very confused

Pathfinder45 · November 2, 2018, 10:48 PM

Move your rear sight down.

bamaranger · November 2, 2018, 11:09 PM

I am not a fan of the "6 o'clock" hold, for any type of field shooting or SD use. I want the bullet to land either at the top of my sight post (handguns) or "on/under" a rifle front sight bead. If the rifle has a post front sight, I want the bullet to land on top of that post. I occasionally use a "6" hold on paper targets while zeroing firearms, but if so, want the bullet strike at "6". The 6 hold is simple easier to use with certain sights and distances for me.

The 6 o'clock hold is largely a target bullseye practice. It is easier for many folks to perch the bullseye on top of the front post, than to "half" the black bull while trying to hold center. Black front sight on black target circle tends to fade out, so the 6 hold allows holding under and the sights are adjusted to obtain center. When shooting 6 o'clock, the rear sight is adjusted up to allow the slug to land in the center of the black, above the front sight. How high that point of impact is depends on how large your black bull measures, and to some the distance to the target. If with the "6" hold, your bull center is 3" up, (assuming a 6" black circle), if your circle size changes (say to 12") then your point of impact will still be 3" above the post.....but no longer in the center, as center is now another 3" higher . Hope that makes sense. Put another way, with reversing the target sizes smaller, a bullet landing 3" high above the sights at 25 yd to obtain a "bullseye" will be several inches above a squirrels head if I hold "6" on the critters noggin, as the head isn't but about an inch or so in size.

Regards your rifle v. handgun issue: I zero about all my .22 rifles "ON" at 50 yds. That is about as far as I can see .22 type targets (like coke cans and squirrels) afield, and about as far as the .22 can handle bigger varmints like a coyote. With that practice, I can hold on, and pretty much count on the bullet landing close enough to obtain a hit, from the muzzle to 50 yds. I zero all handguns, regardless of caliber, "ON" at 25yds, which is about as far as I can shoot a handgun accurately these days. Again, a center hold from the muzzle to 25 will yield a hit close enough.

Unless you are exclusively shooting paper bulls-eye type targets of known size and distances, I respectfully suggest you would get away from the "6" hold and zero ON as described above.

mrpike1973 · November 2, 2018, 11:41 PM

Wow a lot to take in thank you very much. I do have the rear site all the way down and still hit high at 50 yards I'm going to have to do the above info.

**JohnKSa** · November 3, 2018, 12:53 AM

Here's a picture that helps explain what's going on.

https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/trajectory/

The bullet starts out below the sights. Gravity begins acting on the bullet the instant that it leaves the bore.

The bullet will be driven upwards by the upwards angle of the bore relative to the sights and its trajectory will carry it up to the level of the sights, and then above them. The bullet will cross the sightline twice. Once going upward and once when the upward velocity imparted by the upward angled bore is finally overcome by gravity and the bullet starts falling back downward.

When you zero a rifle at very close range, you're adjusting the point of aim to align with the point of impact for the point where the bullet is crossing the sight line on the upwards part of the trajectory.

As a result, it will keep going upwards for awhile and you will find that your point of impact rises on the target as the range increases. Eventually gravity wins and the bullet will come back down, crossing the line of sight somewhere far downrange.

Anyway, all of that to say that, at most, the bullet only hits the target perfectly aligned with the sights at two ranges. At all the other ranges, it's a compromise.

sparkyv · November 3, 2018, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Here's a picture that helps explain what's going on.

https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/trajectory/

The bullet starts out below the sights. Gravity begins acting on the bullet the instant that it leaves the bore.

The bullet will be driven upwards by the upwards angle of the bore relative to the sights and its trajectory will carry it up to the level of the sights, and then above them. The bullet will cross the sightline twice. Once going upward and once when the upward velocity imparted by the upward angled bore is finally overcome by gravity and the bullet starts falling back downward.

When you zero a rifle at very close range, you're adjusting the point of aim to align with the point of impact for the point where the bullet is crossing the sight line on the upwards part of the trajectory.

As a result, it will keep going upwards for awhile and you will find that your point of impact rises on the target as the range increases. Eventually gravity wins and the bullet will come back down, crossing the line of sight somewhere far downrange.

Anyway, all of that to say that, at most, the bullet only hits the target perfectly aligned with the sights at two ranges. At all the other ranges, it's a compromise.

^^^This^^^

DukeConnor · November 3, 2018, 07:11 AM

I have a couple service rifles that I have sighted for a 6 oclock hold. I have found at longer ranges the front sight will obscure the target. (smaller steel plates and such)

The 6 hold allows me to see the target.

Wyosmith · November 3, 2018, 09:23 AM

For most of my life I used a dead-on hold, but for most of my life I had 20/10 vision so I could do that very well. Now as I am approaching "geezerhood" I can't see like I used to, so I have re-zeroed all my rifles and hand guns to a 6:00 hold when firing at a 2-1/2" target. So at 25 yards if my sights are perfectly aligned you could say I am 1.25" high with a handgun at 25 yards and the same with rifles at 100 yards. The only exception is my M95 Winchester in 270, which I have zeroed 2.5" high at 100 and that makes me able to hold dead on for a deer or antelope out to 300 yards with no consideration at all for trajectory. I realize you are asking about 22s, but I think the principal here would be the same.

SO my answer about which way you should zero would be a counter-question to you:

"How good is your vision"?

If it's 20/20 or better a dead-on hold is best for fine shooting, but if you hunt in shadows much or if your eyes are not perfect (or better) you are best to use a 6:00 hold

Erno86 · November 3, 2018, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrpike1973

I'm not to good at iron sights have a Henry 22 at 25 yards I use the 6 o clock method i hit center good but at 50 Yards I'm almost a foot too high what am I doing wrong? I finally figured it out to shoot hand guns point of aim and rifles at 6 o clock? correct? I have no problem hitting bullseye with hand guns thanks for help pics help if possible very confused

Have you shot the Henry off of a benchrest?

Besides peep sights...the majority of shooters have a tendency to shoot high with iron sights.

What style is the rear leaf sight --- "u" or "v" shaped?

You can nestle the top of the front bead at or near the bottom of the rear leaf sight.

Picher · November 3, 2018, 10:07 AM

If the rear elevator is at the bottom step and you're shooting with the top of the front bead level with the top of the rear leaf, you may need to either remove the elevator from the rear sight, or preferably, get a taller front sight installed. It may need to be about 3/32" taller than the factory sight.

T. O'Heir · November 3, 2018, 12:49 PM

It's not the 6 o'clock hold or the sights. It's the ammo. It's normal for a 40 grain .22, sighted in at 25, to be high at 50. The bullet is still rising.
A foot is a lot though. Should be more like 2.75". You need to either adjust your hold or the rear sight for longer distances.

RC20 · November 3, 2018, 03:22 PM

The OP has the rear sight down as far as it will go. Short of cutting the barrel down and sinking it further........

Even High velocity 22 is not going to be that high at 50 yards.

It sounds like the FRONT sight is significantly too short.

Time to call Henry, or if an older gun a gun smith.

mrpike1973 · November 4, 2018, 12:35 PM

HI all, I have shot it off a bench. I zeroed at 25 yards I can get a pretty good group. I am aiming with the front site over the bullseye this helped a lot point of aim. Also I found as I'm getting older I'm not seeing very well I'm also color blind so unless the target is bright white everything looks dark to me no contrast. I have been lining up the front site flush with what I would call a U site rear? Erno86 suggests to put the front site lower in the V not sure I follow this would put the bullet lower I believe correct?? At 50 yards I'm still high T.Oheir says its the ammo makes sense but if I shoot my 10/22 with scope At 25 or 50 Yards I hit every time with maybe 1 inch off. So in frustration I put a cheapie scope on it and dare I say I can hit anything I want with it. I still want to figure out what I'm doing wrong with the sites. Starting to get to cold here to do much target practicing. Thanks everyone

Pathfinder45 · November 4, 2018, 01:14 PM

I agree that you need a taller front sight.

mrpike1973 · November 4, 2018, 05:27 PM

well curiosity got me went out and took scope off. I put the front site in the lower v then at 25 yards was hitting good? hope this was right. I will call Henry tomorrow just to make sure it's not a site issue. I put the scope back on but always like a back up plan.

mrpike1973 · November 4, 2018, 08:56 PM

After doing a little research looks like there was an issue with the front sites I will call Monday and see what they can do for me.

mrpike1973 · November 5, 2018, 09:47 AM

Called Henry today WOW great service they are sending me a new taller front site hope this will work.

Road_Clam · November 6, 2018, 02:35 PM

All my irons are zerod for a 6:00 hold based upon a standard nra target that uses a 6 moa black center. Reason being is i feel i present better consistency when i raise my front post just until it touches the bottom of the black target . If i try center hold i can't tell exactly where the top of my post is within the 6 moa circle. Not that i claim to be a master marksman, but this method just helps me with better consistiency.

Scorch · November 7, 2018, 05:08 PM

6 o' clock hold is a target shooters' thing. I have always sighted rifles in for point of aim/point of impact. When I'm trying to shoot something as small as a rabbit's head, I don't want to have to try to figure out where the bullet will strike. Put the front sight on the base of the ear, fire, then go pick up the dead critter.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · November 7, 2018, 06:56 PM

There you go.
Henry's Service Policy is second to non.

Drm50 · November 7, 2018, 08:02 PM

I'm more of a hunter than target shooter when it comes to rifles. I sight them all
for dead 0. I sight 22s in at 40yds and I don't know why or I have forgot the reason. Anyway like someone already said when you are shooting unknown ranges, at random angles at small targets the 6oclock hold is usless. I do have target handguns sighted with 6oclock hold only because it provides uniform aiming point at sighted distances on given size bullseye.

Pathfinder45 · November 8, 2018, 10:34 PM

Unless you are using an aperture front sight, the six o'clock hold is correct, whether you have a post or bead front sight. Furthermore, even those of us that like the idea of having the bullet impact right on top of the front sight have to deal with the fact that the bullet crosses the line of sight twice, and that between those two points, the bullet strikes high and like it or not, that's a six o'clock hold. The exception would be to sight the gun to just barely meet the line of sight at the highest point in its trajectory, in which case, the bullet will strike low at all other ranges, a less than ideal arrangement. It's just a matter of degrees, that is, how high are you willing to allow your bullets to strike above the line of sight at the highest point in the trajectory.

November 2, 2018, 07:26 PM	#1
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	6 oclock or point of aim for 22 rifle I'm not to good at iron sights have a Henry 22 at 25 yards I use the 6 o clock method i hit center good but at 50 Yards I'm almost a foot too high what am I doing wrong? I finally figured it out to shoot hand guns point of aim and rifles at 6 o clock? correct? I have no problem hitting bullseye with hand guns thanks for help pics help if possible very confused

November 2, 2018, 11:09 PM	#3
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	sight picture I am not a fan of the "6 o'clock" hold, for any type of field shooting or SD use. I want the bullet to land either at the top of my sight post (handguns) or "on/under" a rifle front sight bead. If the rifle has a post front sight, I want the bullet to land on top of that post. I occasionally use a "6" hold on paper targets while zeroing firearms, but if so, want the bullet strike at "6". The 6 hold is simple easier to use with certain sights and distances for me. The 6 o'clock hold is largely a target bullseye practice. It is easier for many folks to perch the bullseye on top of the front post, than to "half" the black bull while trying to hold center. Black front sight on black target circle tends to fade out, so the 6 hold allows holding under and the sights are adjusted to obtain center. When shooting 6 o'clock, the rear sight is adjusted up to allow the slug to land in the center of the black, above the front sight. How high that point of impact is depends on how large your black bull measures, and to some the distance to the target. If with the "6" hold, your bull center is 3" up, (assuming a 6" black circle), if your circle size changes (say to 12") then your point of impact will still be 3" above the post.....but no longer in the center, as center is now another 3" higher . Hope that makes sense. Put another way, with reversing the target sizes smaller, a bullet landing 3" high above the sights at 25 yd to obtain a "bullseye" will be several inches above a squirrels head if I hold "6" on the critters noggin, as the head isn't but about an inch or so in size. Regards your rifle v. handgun issue: I zero about all my .22 rifles "ON" at 50 yds. That is about as far as I can see .22 type targets (like coke cans and squirrels) afield, and about as far as the .22 can handle bigger varmints like a coyote. With that practice, I can hold on, and pretty much count on the bullet landing close enough to obtain a hit, from the muzzle to 50 yds. I zero all handguns, regardless of caliber, "ON" at 25yds, which is about as far as I can shoot a handgun accurately these days. Again, a center hold from the muzzle to 25 will yield a hit close enough. Unless you are exclusively shooting paper bulls-eye type targets of known size and distances, I respectfully suggest you would get away from the "6" hold and zero ON as described above.

November 3, 2018, 12:53 AM	#5
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	Here's a picture that helps explain what's going on. https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/trajectory/ The bullet starts out below the sights. Gravity begins acting on the bullet the instant that it leaves the bore. The bullet will be driven upwards by the upwards angle of the bore relative to the sights and its trajectory will carry it up to the level of the sights, and then above them. The bullet will cross the sightline twice. Once going upward and once when the upward velocity imparted by the upward angled bore is finally overcome by gravity and the bullet starts falling back downward. When you zero a rifle at very close range, you're adjusting the point of aim to align with the point of impact for the point where the bullet is crossing the sight line on the upwards part of the trajectory. As a result, it will keep going upwards for awhile and you will find that your point of impact rises on the target as the range increases. Eventually gravity wins and the bullet will come back down, crossing the line of sight somewhere far downrange. Anyway, all of that to say that, at most, the bullet only hits the target perfectly aligned with the sights at two ranges. At all the other ranges, it's a compromise. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 3, 2018, 12:49 PM	#11
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	It's not the 6 o'clock hold or the sights. It's the ammo. It's normal for a 40 grain .22, sighted in at 25, to be high at 50. The bullet is still rising. A foot is a lot though. Should be more like 2.75". You need to either adjust your hold or the rear sight for longer distances. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 3, 2018, 03:22 PM	#12
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	The OP has the rear sight down as far as it will go. Short of cutting the barrel down and sinking it further........ Even High velocity 22 is not going to be that high at 50 yards. It sounds like the FRONT sight is significantly too short. Time to call Henry, or if an older gun a gun smith. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

November 2, 2018, 10:48 PM	#2
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Move your rear sight down.

November 2, 2018, 11:41 PM	#4
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	Wow a lot to take in thank you very much. I do have the rear site all the way down and still hit high at 50 yards I'm going to have to do the above info.

November 3, 2018, 07:11 AM	#7
DukeConnor Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2016 Posts: 224	I have a couple service rifles that I have sighted for a 6 oclock hold. I have found at longer ranges the front sight will obscure the target. (smaller steel plates and such) The 6 hold allows me to see the target.

November 3, 2018, 09:23 AM	#8
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	For most of my life I used a dead-on hold, but for most of my life I had 20/10 vision so I could do that very well. Now as I am approaching "geezerhood" I can't see like I used to, so I have re-zeroed all my rifles and hand guns to a 6:00 hold when firing at a 2-1/2" target. So at 25 yards if my sights are perfectly aligned you could say I am 1.25" high with a handgun at 25 yards and the same with rifles at 100 yards. The only exception is my M95 Winchester in 270, which I have zeroed 2.5" high at 100 and that makes me able to hold dead on for a deer or antelope out to 300 yards with no consideration at all for trajectory. I realize you are asking about 22s, but I think the principal here would be the same. SO my answer about which way you should zero would be a counter-question to you: "How good is your vision"? If it's 20/20 or better a dead-on hold is best for fine shooting, but if you hunt in shadows much or if your eyes are not perfect (or better) you are best to use a 6:00 hold

November 3, 2018, 10:07 AM	#10
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	If the rear elevator is at the bottom step and you're shooting with the top of the front bead level with the top of the rear leaf, you may need to either remove the elevator from the rear sight, or preferably, get a taller front sight installed. It may need to be about 3/32" taller than the factory sight.

November 4, 2018, 12:35 PM	#13
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	HI all, I have shot it off a bench. I zeroed at 25 yards I can get a pretty good group. I am aiming with the front site over the bullseye this helped a lot point of aim. Also I found as I'm getting older I'm not seeing very well I'm also color blind so unless the target is bright white everything looks dark to me no contrast. I have been lining up the front site flush with what I would call a U site rear? Erno86 suggests to put the front site lower in the V not sure I follow this would put the bullet lower I believe correct?? At 50 yards I'm still high T.Oheir says its the ammo makes sense but if I shoot my 10/22 with scope At 25 or 50 Yards I hit every time with maybe 1 inch off. So in frustration I put a cheapie scope on it and dare I say I can hit anything I want with it. I still want to figure out what I'm doing wrong with the sites. Starting to get to cold here to do much target practicing. Thanks everyone

November 4, 2018, 01:14 PM	#14
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I agree that you need a taller front sight.

November 4, 2018, 05:27 PM	#15
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	well curiosity got me went out and took scope off. I put the front site in the lower v then at 25 yards was hitting good? hope this was right. I will call Henry tomorrow just to make sure it's not a site issue. I put the scope back on but always like a back up plan.

November 4, 2018, 08:56 PM	#16
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	After doing a little research looks like there was an issue with the front sites I will call Monday and see what they can do for me.

November 5, 2018, 09:47 AM	#17
mrpike1973 Member Join Date: October 30, 2018 Posts: 21	Called Henry today WOW great service they are sending me a new taller front site hope this will work.

November 6, 2018, 02:35 PM	#18
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	All my irons are zerod for a 6:00 hold based upon a standard nra target that uses a 6 moa black center. Reason being is i feel i present better consistency when i raise my front post just until it touches the bottom of the black target . If i try center hold i can't tell exactly where the top of my post is within the 6 moa circle. Not that i claim to be a master marksman, but this method just helps me with better consistiency. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

November 7, 2018, 05:08 PM	#19
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	6 o' clock hold is a target shooters' thing. I have always sighted rifles in for point of aim/point of impact. When I'm trying to shoot something as small as a rabbit's head, I don't want to have to try to figure out where the bullet will strike. Put the front sight on the base of the ear, fire, then go pick up the dead critter. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 7, 2018, 06:56 PM	#20
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	There you go. Henry's Service Policy is second to non.

November 7, 2018, 08:02 PM	#21
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	I'm more of a hunter than target shooter when it comes to rifles. I sight them all for dead 0. I sight 22s in at 40yds and I don't know why or I have forgot the reason. Anyway like someone already said when you are shooting unknown ranges, at random angles at small targets the 6oclock hold is usless. I do have target handguns sighted with 6oclock hold only because it provides uniform aiming point at sighted distances on given size bullseye.

November 8, 2018, 10:34 PM	#22
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Unless you are using an aperture front sight, the six o'clock hold is correct, whether you have a post or bead front sight. Furthermore, even those of us that like the idea of having the bullet impact right on top of the front sight have to deal with the fact that the bullet crosses the line of sight twice, and that between those two points, the bullet strikes high and like it or not, that's a six o'clock hold. The exception would be to sight the gun to just barely meet the line of sight at the highest point in its trajectory, in which case, the bullet will strike low at all other ranges, a less than ideal arrangement. It's just a matter of degrees, that is, how high are you willing to allow your bullets to strike above the line of sight at the highest point in the trajectory.