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Old November 25, 2020, 02:02 PM   #1
mattL46
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Any help identifying this 98 mauser?

Hi folks. Just curious about the origin of my old mauser. It's a sporter, and I'm assuming it didn't begin life that way, but, maybe it did? Quite a few markings, but none that I can use to definitively date it, or its manufacturing location/region. It began life chambered in 9.3×62 and has been converted to the venerable .257 Bob. I'll post a few pics, and don't hesitate to ask for more. I only seek this information for insight/educational purposes, I'm not worried about its value. I just like to learn as much as I can about my particular collection. I inherited it, from my grandfather, its been in my possession for probably 11-12 years. Few specs

Original clambering: 9.3x62
Double set triggers
Oval vent holes in bolt (may not be original bolt)
1/2 round 1/2 octagon bbl.
Serial:3112
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Old November 25, 2020, 03:04 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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Waiting on pictures.
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Old November 25, 2020, 03:07 PM   #3
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Waiting on pictures.
Been working on that since I posted. Having trouble with Imgur, and photos are too high resolution to post through TFL. Still trying. Hang tight!
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Old November 25, 2020, 03:34 PM   #4
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I'm giving up on the photos for the time being. Mobile service is junk today and I can't get any photos to successfully upload to either Imgur, or Flickr. So, I shall try again later.
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Old November 25, 2020, 06:12 PM   #5
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There is no such cartridge as the "venerable" .257 Bob.

Its the .257 ROBERTS

originated as a wildcat by Ned H. Roberts and adopted by Remington as a commercial round in 1934.

Roberts was his last name not his first name and therefore it is incorrect and inappropriate to shorten or change it to "bob".

Does your rifle have the thumb slot for clip loading? If it does, it began life as a military action. If not, it was made from a commercial action.
beyond that we need info on the markings, clear pictures (sized for TFL) preferred.
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Old November 25, 2020, 08:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Its the .257 ROBERTS

originated as a wildcat by Ned H. Roberts and adopted by Remington as a commercial round in 1934.
Left out a couple of steps.
First big name maker of .25 Roberts wildcat was Neidner.
G&H simplified case forming, versions not interchangeable.
.257 Remington Roberts will not chamber in either shop's rifles.
Which casts a lot of doubt on the common wisdom that the factory ammo is loaded light to protect wildcat Spanish Mausers.
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Old November 25, 2020, 10:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
There is no such cartridge as the "venerable" .257 Bob.

Its the .257 ROBERTS

originated as a wildcat by Ned H. Roberts and adopted by Remington as a commercial round in 1934.

Roberts was his last name not his first name and therefore it is incorrect and inappropriate to shorten or change it to "bob".

Does your rifle have the thumb slot for clip loading? If it does, it began life as a military action. If not, it was made from a commercial action.
beyond that we need info on the markings, clear pictures (sized for TFL) preferred.
@44 amp. I'm very familiar with the cartridge, and didn't mean to hurt your feelings, and thanks...I guess. I'll work more on the photos tomorrow. I'm not all that tech savvy, but can figure it out, given enough time.

Last edited by mattL46; November 25, 2020 at 11:01 PM.
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Old November 25, 2020, 10:54 PM   #8
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I figured it out. Here's one photo. I'll resize some more.
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Old November 25, 2020, 10:55 PM   #9
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Another
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Old November 25, 2020, 10:59 PM   #10
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And another...
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Old November 25, 2020, 11:04 PM   #11
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Legible markings "Kruft Laufstahl" on the side of the barell. And "H. Keller" under bbl along with original cartridge designation. I'm assuming that was the man/woman who owned it previously, but, don't know. Thanks folks.
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Old November 26, 2020, 10:16 AM   #12
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Krupp Laufstahl is Krupp Fluid Steel. Krupp is the major German ironworks. They made the steel for the barrel, not the barrel or rifle.

H. Keller is apparently the gunmaker, I found his name on a drilling.

Proof mark (eagle) N is nitro proof, (eagle) J is reproof. It went back through the proof house for some reason.

I don't know what 243 signifies. Maybe the 243rd gun tested that year, maybe February 1943, but that seems unlikely for a German sporter, maybe the barrel number for H. Keller or whoever he got it from.

I have not seen the heart shaped stamp before.

Please show the whole rifle with closeups of the action.
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Old November 26, 2020, 12:10 PM   #13
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@44 amp. I'm very familiar with the cartridge, and didn't mean to hurt your feelings, and thanks...I guess.
Didn't hurt my feelings, but did get me spun up a bit. I'm an old curmudgeon with a strong leaning towards precision in firearms terms. Using the correct names often makes the difference between understanding and misunderstanding.

Win and Rem and some others are long accepted "shorthand" in firearms use, used even by gun makers themselves. But changing Roberts to "bob",..sorry, no...just...no. Likewise changing Weatherby to "Roy" which I saw done once on the internet...its just not ...right.

I am also irritated at "wheelies" for revolvers and "shotty" for shotgun, but those are just cutesy stupid, not quite the same as changing the person's name.

I suppose someday I might see someone writing about the "9mm Geo" instead of 9mm Luger... I won't let that one pass, either.

Quote:
Krupp Laufstahl is Krupp Fluid Steel.
Very close translation, but not quite precise. It certainly is "fluid steel" in the usual sense, however, laufen is the German verb meaning "to run" so a literal translation would be Krupp run steel, and could be meant as steel "run in the Krupp works" but that also is not quite correct.

Lauf in German firearms terminology is the barrel. (its where the bullet "runs") so I think the proper translation of Krupp Laufstahl would be "Krupp Barrel steel" meaning the metal was barrel steel quality, like US makers used "fluid steel" and "Nickel steel" in that era.

Translating German firearm terminology can be amusing, and requires a bit of knowing the mechanisms to understand things sometimes. OF course, the same can be said for English, as well.

here's another one, the gun part we call the "hammer" in German is the "Hahn". Which, if you look it up translates to "Rooster"
Which seems to make no sense, until you go a step further and change "Rooster" to "Cock" and then it makes sense, as it is (in English) the part that we "cock".

the Eagle/N is the German commercial Nitro proof mark. The style of the eagle suggests to me it was during the Nazi years, but don't take that as a given. I have seen that "heart shape" mark somewhere, but cannot now remember just where. european, almost certainly, but might not be German, I didn't find it in the one book I quickly checked, but that's by no means an exhaustive search...
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Old November 26, 2020, 12:48 PM   #14
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There is a good deal of transliteration vs verbatim translation involved.
I got the "fluid steel" from Dietrich Apel's German Sporting Guns site, and he ought to know.
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Old November 26, 2020, 02:07 PM   #15
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"Clambered" in 9.3 x 62 with double set triggers, it'll be commercial. Might be some guy(might be H. Keller) who sportered it. Got a picture of the whole thing?
Highly unlikely to be any kind of German sporter made in 1943. Herr Krupp's place was flat or very close to it, by then.
"...back through the proof house..." If it's been rechambered to .257 Roberts, it'd be reproofed.
Herr Krupp was the company that built all kinds of stuff for the German military since the Middle Ages. They first got rich by making rail road wheels. Their factories in Essen were why The Ruhr was so important during W.W. II.
The Arms of Krupp by William Manchester is an excellent read. $5 to $10 on Amazon.
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Old November 26, 2020, 02:18 PM   #16
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@44Amp Totally understand, and, in ALL honesty, that's prolly the first time I've ever "abbreviated" any cartridge name. Anyhow, I'll get some more photos up this evening. I was leaning toward its a commercial made rifle, that has been rechambered to the Roberts. But, I wouldn't bet on it either. Thanks for all contributors. I'll try and get more photos up tonight!! Check back!
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Old November 26, 2020, 03:27 PM   #17
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Rechambered is a misnomer, rebarrelled is what apparently happened.
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Old November 26, 2020, 03:47 PM   #18
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The Arms of Krupp by William Manchester is an excellent read.
its the definitive English language history of the Krupp family dynasty and its business. Though better bone up on your German, even with the copious footnotes its a bit of a slog for an English only speaker.

Krupp pioneered a number of techniques early on they developed roll stamping tableware (flatware), then developed seamless casting, and at one time, nearly every locomotive in the US ran on Krupp cast wheels...

If it was German and had iron or steel in it, Krupp had a hand in it, somewhere. Essen was a prime location with coal, iron and a river handy and in quantity.

back you your Mauser, again, I ask, does it have the thumbslot on the left side of the reciever? Military 98s had them, commercial ones did not. This is the quick and easy way to id the action as commercial, or sporterized military.
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Old November 26, 2020, 05:42 PM   #19
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does it have the thumbslot on the left side of the reciever? Military 98s had them, commercial ones did not.
Frank deHaas shows a very Euro sporting Mauser with thumb notch but waffles that it appears to have been built on a military action.

Old catalogs show rifles from the right but 1939 Stoegers has one left view to illustrate the "factory mounted telescope sight." It has the thumb notch, along with its double set triggers and lever floor plate release.
Thumb notch or not, they advertise that all (then) Mauser rifles may be loaded with clips.
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:12 PM   #20
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Nope, still carries the original chambering markings. Actually appears to have been lined.
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:13 PM   #21
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Rechambered is a misnomer, rebarrelled is what apparently happened.
Nope, still carries the original markings for 9.3x62 I think it's actually been lined.
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
its the definitive English language history of the Krupp family dynasty and its business. Though better bone up on your German, even with the copious footnotes its a bit of a slog for an English only speaker.

Krupp pioneered a number of techniques early on they developed roll stamping tableware (flatware), then developed seamless casting, and at one time, nearly every locomotive in the US ran on Krupp cast wheels...

If it was German and had iron or steel in it, Krupp had a hand in it, somewhere. Essen was a prime location with coal, iron and a river handy and in quantity.

back you your Mauser, again, I ask, does it have the thumbslot on the left side of the reciever? Military 98s had them, commercial ones did not. This is the quick and easy way to id the action as commercial, or sporterized military.
@44 my apologies, thought I'd answered that. Yes, it does indeed have the thumbslot. More photos coming soon.
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:21 PM   #23
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Left side receiver
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:24 PM   #24
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Right side receiver
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Old November 26, 2020, 07:32 PM   #25
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Evidence of a line job, starting to think (with y'alls help) it is military gone sporter.
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