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Old October 18, 2020, 09:03 PM   #51
jrothWA
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Consider a J frame & 3-inch barrel and what you prefer in ammo.

as a alternate would a "classis. S&W 39-2, with 124gr XTP, shoot to POA .
If you have discreet "cargo pants" both are snuggled in the front pocket.

Good luck and hope you never need to use.
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Old October 18, 2020, 10:14 PM   #52
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With concealment in mind I must ask....what type of clothing do you wear at your church? Is there a dress code for security team members? Would you look out of place with a sport coat or other article of clothing that would aid in concealment?

There are 3 parts of every concealment situation, size of the gun, the holster, and type of clothing worn. Which leads me to another question.

What holster do you currently use?

I attended church religiously for the first 34 years of my life. So I understand the politics. I also understand that you have a need for complete concealment. If you can include a good holster and gun belt to match with your clothing choice, you might be able to carry a slightly larger gun. Thereby keeping with the pastor's request and getting a better grip on your gun.
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Old October 19, 2020, 03:39 AM   #53
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A church can be a reasonably sized building, which would mean you require an accurate pistol out to 25 yards? Which would put wee little .380 pistols out in left field.
I carry a Glock 19, all day every day, plus a spare G17 magazine, and a very bright flashlight, in a belt holster, hides under a shirt, outside the pants, or most formal dress.
The one I have used 10 years, still like new, a Wilderness Frequent flier belt looks nothing like a "Gun Belt" all nylon, lightweight.
The only must-have in the way of add ons, the factory fitted steel night sights.
Going for a lighter, slimmer pistol, the Glock 43X, study that new offering from Glock. Same night sights.
Accuracy comes with lots of practice. Any Federal hollow points. My favorite, 147g but 124g is fine. Hard Ball for practice, cheaper. All shots fired, double taps. Factory fitted Night Sights, shoot to point of aim.
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Old October 19, 2020, 06:36 PM   #54
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I would side with AK103K here.

Nobody is gonna know if you do your part. I carry compact or full size double stacks most of the time in a size up T shirt and it is not at all obvious.

Wear a suit coat over your normal nice clothes and you'll be set to carry a compact or full size gun with no issue.

And you'll be able to carry a gun you can shoot well.

Dress around it and you can conceal whatever pistol you already shoot well.

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Old October 20, 2020, 06:45 PM   #55
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A while back the insurance folks talked to our pastor about security.

We got new door locks, new camera system, new rules for door locking and a few other similar items. After talking about the above, the pastor announced we would be having a security team. He indicated that interested parties "with applicable permits" should contact him or the new "team lead".

The way he went about the whole thing was great. If it is obvious a pastor wants to "do things right" a security team does not have to get told to compromise on choosing form over function.

Good luck with choosing.
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Old October 20, 2020, 10:21 PM   #56
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A couple of the guys on our team carry Sig P365s with the 12 round mags. I do too in the summer. I've started carrying my Beretta PX4 compact to church this fall.
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Old October 21, 2020, 04:04 PM   #57
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I had typed out a long reply and the login timed out. Ugh.

As some have mentioned, some churches are fairly large so I would say go with a compact gun or full size of you can conceal it. The longer sight radius will allow for better precision and is more controllable. Size should not be a concern as long as the gun is fully concealed.

You did not mention what the typical “dress code” is for the church. If you wear a suit, you can hide just about anything. There is a holster called Urban Carry that sits inside of your pants. They claim that you can carry a full-sized gun and access it very quickly. With loo3ser fitting dark colored pants, you could easily conceal a larger weapon.

I would go with 9mm as it is more controllable and has greater mag capacity. You should obviously go with good quality hollow point ammo to reduce over penetration and “stop the threat more effectively”.

I would consider a light/laser combo or a laser at a minimum. While some people feel they are overrated, I feel they may be beneficial for longer range shots or visual confirmation of where you are aiming, while keeping your eyes on the threat.

As for your choice of weapon, there are multiple guns that fit the bill. For me, I would choose one that I can shoot well and still carry fairly comfortably. So let’s list all the guns that meet your criteria:

Beretta PX4 Storm Compact
CZ P07
Heckler & Koch P30
Heckler & Koch USP Compact
Springfield Armory XD-E
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 M2.0

All of these have manual safeties. If that is negotiable, you can add the Glock 19 and Walter PPQ.
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Old October 21, 2020, 04:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by stephen426
I would consider a light/laser combo or a laser at a minimum. While some people feel they are overrated, I feel they may be beneficial for longer range shots or visual confirmation of where you are aiming, while keeping your eyes on the threat.
With a laser, the "visual confirmation of where you're aiming" only works for whatever distance the laser is zeroed at. At any other distance, you have to mentally adjust for how much offset there is. This gets even worse if the laser is one that's in one of the grip panels, because then it's off the bore axis both vertically and horizontally.
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Old October 21, 2020, 07:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
With a laser, the "visual confirmation of where you're aiming" only works for whatever distance the laser is zeroed at. At any other distance, you have to mentally adjust for how much offset there is. This gets even worse if the laser is one that's in one of the grip panels, because then it's off the bore axis both vertically and horizontally.
Not to be argumentative, but the difference, at least with my gun/laser set-up is not very much.

The one I have on my S&W 1911SC-E is a grip panel type (CTC), set at 15 yards. Any distance short of that and the difference is minimal, as in insignificant. Out to 35 yards we're talking maybe three inches. That's off-hand, no rest. With a rest it might be less than that.

If I were trying to hit a squirrel, this would not be ideal. But if we're talking the torso of a typical adult male, it's not really enough to worry about.

I will say that it is absolutely necessary to test your set-up for yourself and discover the exact amount of average error that exists so that you can shoot with confidence at any expected distance. Not to do so would be ethically negligent, IMO.

Note: I am not an incredible shot either. Above average at best is how I would classify myself. If you can regularly put 10 bullets inside a playing card at 12 yards in 10 seconds, that's about where I live, expertise-wise.
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Old October 21, 2020, 08:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
With a laser, the "visual confirmation of where you're aiming" only works for whatever distance the laser is zeroed at. At any other distance, you have to mentally adjust for how much offset there is. This gets even worse if the laser is one that's in one of the grip panels, because then it's off the bore axis both vertically and horizontally.
I have lasers on my Kahr PM9 and my Glock 43. Those are probably bad examples as I Crimson Trace Laser Guard and Laser Guard Pro, which places the laser right in front of the trigger guard. Based on the distance, you might have some vertical stringing, but you should still be able to hit your target if you aim center of mass.

Talking about where a pistol is zeroed at, I have to aim about a foot low at 45 yards to hit the steel plate with my Springfield Armory Hellcat. It isn't easy with a subcompact pistol, but I was thinking there is no way I'm that far off. I saw the hits going high and I kept adjusting point of aim till I hit the steel. I don't have a laser on the Hellcat, but it seems like accessories are still fairly hard to come by for that gun.
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Old October 22, 2020, 07:28 AM   #61
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Simple and easy, don't go for a "mini pistol" with all its drawbacks, just change the way you dress so a decent size gun doesn't show. Maybe not convenient or stylish, but what matters more, the way you look or having the better tool for the job IF it ever is needed?
Very good advice and I'll add, pick a model that's accurate for the distances involved. Our church is nearly 100 ft square...30+ yards...a pocket pistol in a marginal caliber will not fill the bill.

Dress around the gun and use a holster that'll let you get to it while sitting in a pew. Concealment, given dress up church suitable attire, should not be a problem.

Lastly, pick a gun & caliber that'll do the job and has enough bullet options to satisfy your tactical needs. .357s, 9's, 40's, & 45's will all offer what you'll need. Pin point precision is your goal without excessive penetration. Your job is identical to that of the Secret Service protection detail....

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Old October 22, 2020, 09:31 AM   #62
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I don't disagree with the last comments, but when did this morph from protecting the children's ministry area (which in my church is a small classroom, but that's probably unusually small) to protecting the entire building? It would be /nice/ to pack a large enough gun to be effective from across the sanctuary should the need arise, but I don't think that was one of the requirements. And it would be better to have multiple people armed, so the chances increase that *somebody* has a close (and clear) shot.
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Old October 22, 2020, 09:47 AM   #63
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You don't prepare for the average condition, you prepare for the worst.
If I were guarding children, I would want a powerful weapon that would hammer any attacker.
The OP is just going to have to balance protecting the kids and hiding his gun.
This might require field testing several pistols.
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Old October 22, 2020, 11:37 AM   #64
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Best pistol for childrens church security
Is it a good idea to arm children? Is there gonna be a cut off age for these gun toters? Like toddlers and below, no guns. Or maybe they got to be strong enough to pick it up and point it before we give you a gun? Also who are they supposed to be defending themselves against? Overly stern parents?

If you give all the kids guns won't you have to have an armed adult hanging around to look after them?

Seems a sketchy idea.

Now if your thinking of what gun a person should carry who is responsible for taking care of the kids while in church, well that's another thing.

First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

It's clear that the "guardian" of the children in this case is untrained because they come to a gun forum to ask this question.

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.

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Old October 22, 2020, 12:13 PM   #65
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Full or medium size 9mm loaded w/ good hollow points (or possibly frangibles?). Small handguns are harder to shoot accurately and have more stoppages rising from design factors and difficulty in getting/maintaining a good grip.

Concealment- go to Goodwill and get a slightly oversize mundane sports jacket. You want to blend in as an ineffectual schlunky, not Captain America. Your schlunky jacket will allow you to have and hide a good weapon, a good holster, an extra mag, and rapid access.
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Old October 22, 2020, 12:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
Is it a good idea to arm children? Is there gonna be a cut off age for these gun toters? Like toddlers and below, no guns. Or maybe they got to be strong enough to pick it up and point it before we give you a gun? Also who are they supposed to be defending themselves against? Overly stern parents?

If you give all the kids guns won't you have to have an armed adult hanging around to look after them?

Seems a sketchy idea.

Now if your thinking of what gun a person should carry who is responsible for taking care of the kids while in church, well that's another thing.

First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

It's clear that the "guardian" of the children in this case is untrained because they come to a gun forum to ask this question.

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.

tipoc
Well, given your eagerness to make uniformed declarations about my training level, yours is evidenced to be the least valuable opinion here. So I think I'll just leave the policy process to the church, do what I was asked to do, and try to protect children. And for the record, I came here for what amounts to a "product review". If you think me asking this question here amounts to asking for marching orders, then you clearing overestimate your value, and it clearly explains why you're seeking validation by posting the way you are.
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Old October 22, 2020, 01:16 PM   #67
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First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

...

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.
The OP is not a policy maker and is complying with the policy that was provided to him.

While your points are good, it appears that the OP doesn't have the ability to start from the ground and build a security policy from scratch. The OP's choices appear to be either to comply with the policies provided or decline to participate and it appears that he has chosen to participate/comply.
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Old October 22, 2020, 02:10 PM   #68
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No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.
He has a number of recommendations, some even fitting his DA/SA spec.

Here is a helpful tool I found today. Pick two pistols off a long list and it will illustrate them side by side and with a table of comparative dimensions.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/...l-vs-glock-g48

Last edited by Jim Watson; October 22, 2020 at 02:17 PM.
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Old October 22, 2020, 02:20 PM   #69
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The OP is not a policy maker and is complying with the policy that was provided to him.

While your points are good, it appears that the OP doesn't have the ability to start from the ground and build a security policy from scratch. The OP's choices appear to be either to comply with the policies provided or decline to participate and it appears that he has chosen to participate/comply.
Spot on, I am neither official clergy nor the head of security. Our church is ideologically mixed, and our head of security is a retired federal agent who personally asked me to participate and lead specifically the childrens church section of security, because he knows I AM trained in regards to threat assessment/awareness, even if not in this particular setting with these particular limitations. I came here to get reviews on firearms that fit my limitations and current training (DA/SA). If you find my limitations stupid, I empathize and even agree ... but it still doeasn't change them. If asking for suggestions and reviews counts in anyone's book as "evidence" that I am "personally" untrained, unrealistic, not taking the situation seriously, or as good as unarmed unless I'm carrying a full size double stack, then I'll file your opinion in the appropriate place along with all other worthless and waste of space typing that happens online. Tipoc did have one thing right. Firearm choice is bottom of the list of things to decide. And thats exactly where I am. Everything else is already set. My training in threat awareness, pain compliance, and dedication to following proper procedure are why I was asked to participate and will probably come into use far more than any firearm I pick.
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Old October 22, 2020, 02:34 PM   #70
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https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/...l-vs-glock-g48

Great. Not only cool, but actually useful.
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Old October 22, 2020, 03:37 PM   #71
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No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.
Sure. To understand my remarks, it's important to look at what I was responding to--comments basically telling the OP that the entire premise of the security team was screwed up and that it needed to be reworked from scratch with an entirely different philosophy.
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Old October 22, 2020, 04:10 PM   #72
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No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.
He has a number of recommendations, some even fitting his DA/SA spec.

Here is a helpful tool I found today. Pick two pistols off a long list and it will illustrate them side by side and with a table of comparative dimensions.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/...l-vs-glock-g48
Let me address the "dress around it" suggestion. It's not a bad suggestion, and its something I thought about when the limitations were first presented to me. I carry a full size as my edc after all. But let me run a situation by you. I "dress around" a bigger pistol, during a day on security duty, and the standard church goers are none the wiser, but then when I'm putting on or taking off my com's and ear piece after church in the security office and while adjusting my wardrobe to do so a fellow security member, the head of security, or the pastor see's that I have not complied and kicks me off the security team and finds someone who will comply, or worse, it gets back to the board and gives them more reservations about having armed security at all right after they were just dipping their toe into starting one. I hope that one day the ignorance will be overcome but right now the best protection these children can get is from a security team with the limitations I've presented and I'm not going to jeopardize that. I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.
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Old October 22, 2020, 04:27 PM   #73
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I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.
What a novel idea -- "Just fly the mission."

[/sarcasm mode]

Some folks can't do that. I've never been able to understand it, but they just can't.
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Old October 22, 2020, 04:36 PM   #74
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Best pistol for childrens church security

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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE View Post
Let me address the "dress around it" suggestion. It's not a bad suggestion, and its something I thought about when the limitations were first presented to me. I carry a full size as my edc after all. But let me run a situation by you. I "dress around" a bigger pistol, during a day on security duty, and the standard church goers are none the wiser, but then when I'm putting on or taking off my com's and ear piece after church in the security office and while adjusting my wardrobe to do so a fellow security member, the head of security, or the pastor see's that I have not complied and kicks me off the security team and finds someone who will comply, or worse, it gets back to the board and gives them more reservations about having armed security at all right after they were just dipping their toe into starting one. I hope that one day the ignorance will be overcome but right now the best protection these children can get is from a security team with the limitations I've presented and I'm not going to jeopardize that. I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.

So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


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Old October 22, 2020, 04:57 PM   #75
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So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


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Not "knowing" level of concealment is the goal. The policy adopted to achieve that goal went overboard to the level of "maximum concealment" in a pistol format. The policy was going to be basically pocket pistols, but our head of security had to fight for raising the bar to the level of still having a full grip, on the argument that more accuracy was needed than what could be offered by a "pocket pistol". Again, this is all second hand. I wasn't in the meeting and have no power over policies. This stuff in on the advice of my pastor and head of security. We met and they told me, as second in charge and head of the childrens church area, I could adjust some of the procedures as needed for children's church, but that I needed to go as small as I could on my side arm while still having a full grip. It is VERY arbitrary, but I think I'm fine as long as it seems an effort was made. My head of security suggested that any single stack subcompact is probably going to be fine. I didn't get this specific with the story because I didn't think I needed to just to get some product reviews.
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