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Old November 28, 2020, 08:20 PM   #76
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The assumption there is that if it had been another round that Platt would have died.
No assumption. I have never been a fan of the 9mm, even before the Miami fiasco. I am a 357 guy at heart. even before the Miami shootout I was shooting my 357 competitively. I trained hard, I wanted to dominate any fight I was in.

Working the inner cities in the 1980's I carried a 6" L frame, a 2 1/2" L frame and a Walther PPK/s .

I have been around enough shootings that I am pretty convinced with what I carry, which was my old duty loads. Too many people are all worked up over "barrier blind" and such. The 357 was barrier blind in 1935.
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Old November 28, 2020, 09:18 PM   #77
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I have never been a fan of the 9mm, even before the Miami fiasco. I am a 357 guy at heart. even before the Miami shootout I was shooting my 357 competitively. I trained hard, I wanted to dominate any fight I was in.
The only guy to score hits before Platt & Matix exited the Monte Carlo was McNeill, shooting his .357Mag revolver. (There is speculation as to whether he was firing .357Mag rounds or .38Sp +P. My understanding is that the agents were not really supposed to be using .357Mag ammo.)

McNeill ran dry after 6 shots, of course, allowing Platt to exit the Monte Carlo and shoot him in the neck while he was trying to reload.

It's not unreasonable to speculate that had McNeill been shooting a high capacity 9, given his performance with his first 6 shots (neutralizing Matix), and his excellent position, 7-8 feet from the threats, he might have been able to use the remaining rounds in the pistol to neutralize Platt before he exited the vehicle and went on his killing spree.

Obviously it's not possible to know what would have happened, but it's not a completely off-the-wall theory given the circumstances.
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Old November 28, 2020, 09:38 PM   #78
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The only guy to score hits before Platt & Matix exited the Monte Carlo was McNeill, shooting his .357Mag revolver. (There is speculation as to whether he was firing .357Mag rounds or .38Sp +P. My understanding is that the agents were not really supposed to be using .357Mag ammo.)

McNeill ran dry after 6 shots, of course, allowing Platt to exit the Monte Carlo and shoot him in the neck while he was trying to reload.

It's not unreasonable to speculate that had McNeill been shooting a high capacity 9, given his performance with his first 6 shots (neutralizing Matix), and his excellent position, 7-8 feet from the threats, he might have been able to use the remaining rounds in the pistol to neutralize Platt before he exited the vehicle and went on his killing spree.

Obviously it's not possible to know what would have happened, but it's not a completely off-the-wall theory given the circumstances.
It is also not unreasonable that if he had been using a hicap 9mm he still would have missed most of his shots. More capacity does not make a better shot. only one guy in the whole group was a shooter and he was blind when he lost his glasses. The rest were average shots. After training feds for a couple decades I can tell you that even above average shots are not really that good.
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Old November 28, 2020, 09:57 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.
If I understand what I read that particular round went through Platt's arm, severing the Brachial Artery (which meant he was going to die no matter what) entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart.

Can we be certain that (excluding .40 S&W or 10mm which didn't exist) any other service caliber round using 1980s technology would have performed better?
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Old November 28, 2020, 10:17 PM   #80
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If I understand what I read that particular round went through Platt's arm, severing the Brachial Artery (which meant he was going to die no matter what) entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart.

Can we be certain that (excluding .40 S&W or 10mm which didn't exist) any other service caliber round using 1980s technology would have performed better?
I would say a 357 magnum with anything but a 110 grain JHP.

A friend of mine shot a guy after he hit him with a 74 LTD. Fired a 158 grn SJHP. Went thru the windshield, thru the BG, thru the front seat, thru the back seat and was laying in the trunk.

The guy did not die, but was incapacitated immediately.

Granted that was just one shooting. We also had a lot of shootings with WW 145 grn STHP's which is what I carried for years. It is hard to find a bad 357 JHP.

The 41 magnum was developed as an LE round in the 1960's.

The 10mm existed at the time, and actually the 40 did as well though not what most people think. It was sort of an experimental cartridge S&W was looking at for competition.
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Old November 28, 2020, 10:25 PM   #81
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It is also not unreasonable that if he had been using a hicap 9mm he still would have missed most of his shots.
Sure, I think that's a given. But he hit 2 out of 6 with what he had. If he could have kept up that kind of a hit rate with a 14+1 pistol like the ones Grogan and Dove were carrying, he had a good chance of doing some damage to Platt before he even got out of the Monte Carlo.
Quote:
More capacity does not make a better shot...
Correct. I'm not saying that he would have been a better shot for having a different gun, but with his hit rate of 2 out of 6 (33.33%) if he could have kept that up for another 8 rounds (for a total of 14+1) he would have made a total of 5 hits. If 2 hits were enough to neutralize Matix, then 3 more hits could have neutralized Platt.

Again, there's no way to know for sure what would have happened, but given the circumstances, it's at least a plausible theory.
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Old November 28, 2020, 10:39 PM   #82
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Again, there's no way to know for sure what would have happened, but given the circumstances, it's at least a plausible theory.
Decent theory.
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Old November 29, 2020, 09:13 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Moonglum View Post
Here is a good analysis

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ

I guess you can't direct link videos here but it's Paul Harrell and it's about 35 minutes long

This recreation is a good deal shorter, though it may not have all of the detail. The Mini-14 sounds like it’s an automatic, but other than that it seems reasonable compared to what I’ve read.

https://youtu.be/04dUCT-qO3c


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Old November 29, 2020, 09:31 AM   #84
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So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.

I'm not qualified to offer an educated opinion on the Miami Shootout but I think there were other mistakes the FBI made that day. They knew they were hunting well armed criminals who were very willing to fight. I wouldn't have gone after them with handguns unless there was no other option. I might even have Bonnie and Clyded them.
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Old November 29, 2020, 10:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Moonglum View Post
So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.

I'm not qualified to offer an educated opinion on the Miami Shootout but I think there were other mistakes the FBI made that day. They knew they were hunting well armed criminals who were very willing to fight. I wouldn't have gone after them with handguns unless there was no other option. I might even have Bonnie and Clyded them.

And again, the agents in the other car were very well armed with shotguns, MP5s, and M16s.


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Old November 29, 2020, 05:15 PM   #86
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So, if Dove had been shooting a 158 grain .357 Magnum Platt might have been incapacitated with that shot. I wonder if a .40 S&W would have made a difference. For that matter I wonder if a 124 Grain Gold Dot would have made a difference.

If frogs had wings...

The tactical errors were so egregious there was not much that would have helped.

The first responding units held back as they thought is was a gang war. The FBI was so worried about getting all the glory they did not communicate with the local police. The heavily armed team was at another bank schmoozing with the tellers. They heavy guns in the cars at the scene were in the trunks of the cars, they did not even have body armor on when it started.
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Old November 29, 2020, 05:59 PM   #87
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While it's been several years since I last met or spoke to Gary Roberts, I believe he still has his dental surgery practice in the south SF Bay Area and is connected to Standford Health (Clinical Assistant Professor, Surgery - Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery Clinical Assistant Professor (By courtesy), Otolaryngology - Head & Neck Surgery Divisions).

He studied with Marty Fackler (whom I never met) during the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory days and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association (IWBA). One of his bio statements you can find online lists that he served as a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, and he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. At some point he stopped working with Marty Fackler, but that was his business and I didn't ask him about it.

I don't know where (if?) he's currently conducting his ballistic testing, since he was apparently unable to continue using the SCPD range for his private ballistic testing when the range master retired from that agency some years ago. He was working with SJPD for a while (at least for a project), but last I heard he was no longer affiliated with them or using their range. I heard he was subsequently looking for a new LE range he could use, but I don't know if he found one.

He has strong opinions on service ammunition testing, but those opinions may not be universally shared among all LE. Pretty unsurprising and normal for such a diverse field as LE. He's still active on at least one gun enthusiast's website, last I saw.
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Old December 1, 2020, 10:31 AM   #88
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I generally look for FBI standards, look up all the ballistic gel tests I can find, and pick a list of 3-4 for each caliber that look best to me. Hopefully all 3-4 will be reliable in the guns I buy them for so I can choose based upon availability and sales unless one proves to be a favorite for other reasons (maybe it is noticeably more accurate in my guns than the other options, maybe one is US made and another isn't, maybe I like one over another for reasons I can't articulate).

Edit: serves me right for reading the 1st page and some of the 2nd page and not all 4 pages before answering. I answered the original question, but by the time I answered, the thread had evolved into something quite different.
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Old December 2, 2020, 06:25 PM   #89
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"The FBI was so worried about getting all the glory they did not communicate with the local police."

This still happens all too often across the USA with a plethora of Federal, State and local Agencies. Too many egos and individuals on power trips bucking for a promotion and or pushing an Agenda... not nearly enough communication and collaboration between agency's.
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Old December 31, 2020, 01:46 PM   #90
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Accuracy Is KING .If you hit a vital GAME OVER
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Old December 31, 2020, 02:28 PM   #91
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I've picked up different HP ammo when I have seen it cheap. I test it. If it opens up reliably in water jugs and is reliable and accurate in a gun I'm ok with using it for SD even Winchester white box hp. If it's not good at expanding, it's for practice like Geco HP. I don't obsess about bullet jacket separation or FBI maximum penetration as long as the bullet expands and is of sufficient weight/speed for the caliber. I don't like 147gr 9mm for example. Too slow for caliber. Shot placement and reliability is more important than any other factor. I want ammo I can buy cheap enough to run some through my guns before I rely on it for SD.

Paul Harrell does a good job discussing the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90PQWzx0_MA
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Old December 31, 2020, 06:38 PM   #92
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Accuracy Is KING .If you hit a vital GAME OVER
Not necessarily
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Old December 31, 2020, 07:39 PM   #93
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Reliability. It must go bang each and everytime you press the trigger.

Ergonomics. You must be comfortable and confidence in using it.

Accuracy. You must be accurate. You don't need Olympic "x" ring accuracy but minute of target.
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Old December 31, 2020, 09:34 PM   #94
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Not necessarily
So a lung shot , heart ,brain or groin is no good .Like Arnold Said If it bleeds You can kill it.
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Old December 31, 2020, 10:07 PM   #95
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It's rare in the real world for things to be absolutely black or white.

You can hit game in the vitals and still lose it. You can hit a person in the vitals and still have them kill you.

Stacy Lim was hit in the vitals with a .357Mag round (it actually put a hole in her heart) and not only survived, but stayed in the gunfight and killed her attacker.

https://www.policemag.com/363559/lap...orce-encounter
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Old January 1, 2021, 07:41 AM   #96
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An example from the other side of the coin would be Michael Platt from the 1986 Miami shootout. He continued to fight despite a bullet in his lung very early in the fight and went on to kill two FBI agents. An autopsy showed 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. He was shot a total of 12 times, with the final shot penetrating his chest and bruising his spinal cord.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Certain instructors will talk about the difference between what they call “timers and switches”. That is a shot that will cause eventual incapacitation (typically desanguination) and those that cause immediate incapacitation (typically an interruption of the central nervous system). The former will end the fight eventually, but in that time the assailant can continue to fight and inflict damage.

As in John’s example when it comes to the human body there are few guarantees. Thankfully the officer got the medical treatment she needed and survived. 101 units of blood is amazing.


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Old January 1, 2021, 11:35 AM   #97
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I would use ball if that's what I have, as it is, I use 125 XTP in the 38, 115 Win HP in the 9MM. Carried 230 ball in the army. The main thing is to hit what you are shooting at, bullet placement is most important. One of our local cops hit a guy with 4 185 HPs at near point blank range, didn't kill him, didn't even knock him down, he walked across the street and fell in the gutter. Still alive today I guess.
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Old January 1, 2021, 06:06 PM   #98
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Define "best"
Everything involve tradeoffs.Monday might require a 15yd hostage shot. Tuesday might be a arms length mag dump. Wed might be a charging vehicle through the windshield shot. Thurs might be a 4 target melee.

One day's advantage might be another day's liability.

Does my gun run reliably on it? Does it score "pretty good" for expansion,penetration and accuracy?

Is it on the shelf available? How many folks get to actually choose between three different offerings of decent SD ammo?
"two whole boxes of 9mm I can buy?"
Does it matter if its Gold Dot,Hydra Shok,or Fiocchi? (At this point)

Just keep pulling the trigger. Be grateful for what you have.
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Old January 2, 2021, 03:04 AM   #99
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As always a contentious topic. There is more to SD ammo selection than comparative gel test reports.

I have seen squib loads and other defects in factory ammo, so in my opinion buying SD ammo from a mainstream reputable manufacturer is key. I do not agonize over penetration tests etc. Any decent well made hollow point from a mainstream manufacturer is ok.

When I restock my carry ammo I normally buy a minimum quantity for initial test (25 if possible), then if they ok I buy another 100 rounds. I keep enough for 3 mags plus 1 or 2 and shoot the rest. So I shoot out around 70 rounds out of the 125 I bought (expensive).

If there is any type of malfunction I will not use them. But I also look at other stuff: how much flash is there? Can I shoot it at night or will it blind me completely? Muzzle blast? For example, load a 357 SIG with 124gr XTP for around 1400+ fps with a slow powder, muzzle flash and blast is extreme, I would not like to shoot that indoors or from a vehicle. But use a fast powder and load it to say 1200fps and you have a very tame round with hugely reduced muzzle flash and blast - very controllable, and you able to put multiple shots on target much easier.

Did not mean to digress, sorry, but the point is when you buy factory SD ammo you really need to test it thoroughly and see if you and your gun like it. That is 1000% more important than 12.6 versus 14.8 inches of penetration...

I also remove my barrel, and drop each round into it to make sure it fits. I once had factory ammo that would not chamber, the bullet was oversize slightly.
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Old January 2, 2021, 07:32 PM   #100
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I load my own SD ammo so

1. I trust it.

2. I can shoot as much as I want.

3. My gun(s) and I like it very much.

RJ
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